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Socialism 101

Sketcher

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Certainly if what you describe would be the case, of course not. However, insurance plans right now don't cover cosmetic operations or abortions, so why would public health care?
Lobbying would get it there.

Plus, public and private institutions often work well hand in hand. If you can't afford a lawyer you can get a subpar one for free, or if you can afford it, you can hire an incredibly good one.
You have the right to an attorney. You don't have the right to health care. Or shelter. Or food. Or water. Or clothing.

You can choose to send your kid to a horrible public school on tax payer dollars if you like, or you can get your kid the best education by paying for private.
That's a bad system. Too many families are locked into bad public schools because they have to pay for them in taxes whether they want to or not, and they just don't have the means to send their children to private schools.

Have you been to the UK? I was there for a few months last year. My friends who are citizens used public health care services, but since I'm not a citizen I had to use private one time. It was expensive but the service was excellent. Its nice to have the choice.
You have choice in America. And, BTW, the internationals I have gotten to know say the same thing about American health care. The service was great. We don't need to make it worse, and more government involvement would do that.
 
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DB!

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Like I said, I partially agree with you. Its just frustrating that I have to pay taxes for services I don't believe in and don't use and then I also have to come out of the pocket for these huge health care deductibles. I have cardiomyopathy. Its not uncommon among athletes. The meds and regular EKGs and Cardio ultra sounds are expensive and insurers won't even cover it a lot of times because it was a "pre-existing condition".
 
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Sketcher

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McCain's plan involves working out a Guaranteed Access Plan with the states to serve those who have pre-existing conditions. Another thing that can be done is expanding health savings accounts, which will allow you to save more for health-related expenses tax-free. I'm not sure where McCain is on that.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9380
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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OK, I just zipped through the first two pages because the talk is over my head. I'm new at this. :confused:

But I think that funding for the poor--and I'm talking ideal world here, not reality--should come from these sources, in order:

1.) Family. Paul talked about widows being added to the church welfare rolls only IF they had no family and were past the age that they would be likely to remarry. Then the church would look out for them. Otherwise, he said, the widow's family should learn charity by looking out for their own.
2.) Church. It's what the original seven deacons were appointed for.
3.) Government. Thus beginneth all this mess.

One preacher I heard, pointed out that if family and churches were doing their jobs properly, there wouldn't be near as much need for government programs.
 
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Rauffenburg

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In American parlance, socialism means the government becomes involved (not via expropriation, but by regulatory control) of "factories" and "banks", i.e. private businesses. The government already has a lot of involvement, for better or worse. I think GQ is pointing out the that the government is attempting to involve itself it our lives to a greater degree than it has been, and the Democrats tend to support this as a way of aggregating power in the government.

[...] The "state", so-called, is intrinsically opposed to individual liberty, religious or otherwise.
There is no such thing as liberty outside a sovereign state because the rule of law is a precondition of liberty and this still requires some "rule". Therefore the state cannot simply be opposed to individual liberty. The question is rather: What does the state do?

Government involvement is not just about setting certain rules, but it must also be seen of which character these rules are. You are not opposed to rules against fraud, are you? Of cause there must be other rules as well, such as setting standards for labor, setting rights for the customer, enforcement of patents and so on. There is no such thing as an unregulated market. The current banking crisis is at least partially caused by a lack of regulation in the international financial system which was created in the last 30-40 years. Actually these problems should be well known because many crises in the past were caused by similar lacks of regulation and legal oversight.

However, insurance plans right now don't cover cosmetic operations or abortions, so why would public health care?
At least in Germany no such thing is covered by public health insurance (and I doubt by private health insurance).

This is not true, the stories you hear growing up as an American are rags-to-riches stories, often by immigrants, who have nothing. And one cannot disarm the social barrier without trampling on the rights that we fought for in our bid for independence.
The social barrier I speak of is a big obstacle to the pursuit of happiness. And in your Declaration of Independence, the effect on the happiness of the people is an important factor in considering the quality of a certain government.

Capitalism does. The most prosperous countries buoy up the standard of living for everyone. If not for capitalism, the poor would not have the possibility of getting fat, owning a car, having an apartment with a working toilet which is separate from the tub/shower, etc.
I agree with one idea: Capitalism, or better a market system has certain liberating effects. It destroys paternalistic structures. But that should not blind anyone. Markets also tend to create new accumulations of economic power. And this power remains more or less unconstrained by democratic procedures.

The Democrats are all about growing government - ostensibly to help the "little guy", but more often than not, they wind up hurting the little guy. They expect us to think that if the "rich" are getting soaked with taxes, that somehow it translates into us feeling better. I don't enjoy seeing my neighbor being punished for his good fortune.
The Government Expenditure as Percent of GDP is much higher in most of Europe's countries as compared to the US. Especially in Scandinavia. I doubt the little guy is better off in the US than in Sweden or Finland. The problem of course is: How is the money spend? If I spend my money on a 700 billion dollar bailout that has become necessary (some say) due to underregulated markets creating financial collapse... well then that is not exactly helping the little guy.

Now the pot is only so big, and the Democrats want to dip deep, and the only way to do it is to soak the middle class LESS than the "rich".
The distribution of wealth has an effect on the size of the pot.
 
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Rauffenburg

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You have choice in America.

Having the choice may lead to worse overall effects some time than not having the choice. In public health care, less choice means better effects because a public health care system is nothing else then a redistribution of individual risks. While in private health care, individuals pay for their own risks. In certain settings collective action leads to better payoff than individual action.
 
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Jim47

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Rauffenburg



If I have to trust on the charity of others, what security do I have that they will provide that charity? The problem of charity is the deep dependence of those who receive it - while those who provide charity can take a role of "patrons". It is stange that you, who probably view government provision as patronizing, do instead rely on private charity. What could be even more patronizing than private charity? It even takes away the rule of the law because there is nothing you can appeal to if you are dependent on charity. Charity as a form mercy is a state of absolute dependence while having laws for social security is not.

Christians put their trust In God to provide help in the way of charity, not trust in chairitable organizations.
 
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Rauffenburg

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Maybe they do, but then at least they should not claim to be on the side of liberty. Being dependent on charity is a much more autere form of dependency than having a legal right for support in case one needs it. I am not against philanthropy. But reliance on philanthropy alone is not enough.
 
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Sketcher

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The social barrier I speak of is a big obstacle to the pursuit of happiness. And in your Declaration of Independence, the effect on the happiness of the people is an important factor in considering the quality of a certain government.
As Franklin put it: You have the right to pursue happiness, you have to catch it yourself. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree with one idea: Capitalism, or better a market system has certain liberating effects. It destroys paternalistic structures. But that should not blind anyone. Markets also tend to create new accumulations of economic power. And this power remains more or less unconstrained by democratic procedures.
This is not a problem.

The Government Expenditure as Percent of GDP is much higher in most of Europe's countries as compared to the US. Especially in Scandinavia.
That's not a credit to them. They have their way of doing things, that doesn't mean that doing the same in the US is a good idea. We spend more on Medicare and Medicaid put together than we do on the military, for example. We also spend more on Social Security than we do on the military. These of course, are horrible and unsustainable programs - especially Social Security.
 
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Sketcher

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Having the choice may lead to worse overall effects some time than not having the choice. In public health care, less choice means better effects because a public health care system is nothing else then a redistribution of individual risks. While in private health care, individuals pay for their own risks. In certain settings collective action leads to better payoff than individual action.
Only if you're dumb and it's your own fault. It is not the state's job to protect you from your own dumb self. We should all have choice because we gravitate towards the choices that will benefit us as we see it. Central planning is highly hit-and-miss, and more often than not mucks up the works.

Choice in health care is not a problem in America. The problem is access. The access problem is partly due to government intervention which drives up the prices of insurance by removing competition from the market. Get rid of those barriers like state-to-state protectionism, reform some of the malpractice laws, and allow health care to be consumer driven rather than corporate driven, and health care will get a lot cheaper while losing none of its quality. In the US, you don't have to wait several months or years on a waiting list to get a procedure done. And roughly half of the new cures in the world come from the US. I don't want the government to destroy that, and if any government is likely to mess things up at that magnitude, the US government is the one to do it.
 
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CADude12

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There is no such thing as liberty outside a sovereign state because the rule of law is a precondition of liberty and this still requires some "rule". Therefore the state cannot simply be opposed to individual liberty. The question is rather: What does the state do?

Government involvement is not just about setting certain rules, but it must also be seen of which character these rules are. You are not opposed to rules against fraud, are you? Of cause there must be other rules as well, such as setting standards for labor, setting rights for the customer, enforcement of patents and so on. There is no such thing as an unregulated market. The current banking crisis is at least partially caused by a lack of regulation in the international financial system which was created in the last 30-40 years. Actually these problems should be well known because many crises in the past were caused by similar lacks of regulation and legal oversight.

At least in Germany no such thing is covered by public health insurance (and I doubt by private health insurance).

The social barrier I speak of is a big obstacle to the pursuit of happiness. And in your Declaration of Independence, the effect on the happiness of the people is an important factor in considering the quality of a certain government.

I agree with one idea: Capitalism, or better a market system has certain liberating effects. It destroys paternalistic structures. But that should not blind anyone. Markets also tend to create new accumulations of economic power. And this power remains more or less unconstrained by democratic procedures.

The Government Expenditure as Percent of GDP is much higher in most of Europe's countries as compared to the US. Especially in Scandinavia. I doubt the little guy is better off in the US than in Sweden or Finland. The problem of course is: How is the money spend? If I spend my money on a 700 billion dollar bailout that has become necessary (some say) due to underregulated markets creating financial collapse... well then that is not exactly helping the little guy.

The distribution of wealth has an effect on the size of the pot.

The $850 Billion in the bailout was to fix a problem originally created by the government - strong arming lenders into making risky loans to people with poor credit. Attempts at regulating the these government programs was opposed by the Democrats. To blame the problem on "unregulated markets" is short sighted. When people began defaulting on their loans, and interest rates were raised, suddenly the lenders found themselves saddled with a lot of debt, and no return.

Why are "accumulations of economic power" bad when done by private business, but when the government does the same, it's a good thing? If you think it's because the government is "democratically constrained", tell that to China & Belarus, or any other country with a totalitarian government.
 
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Simon_Templar

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@Simon Templar


I actually disagree with the - widely held - idea that American Liberty is basically founded on Lockean, i.e. the British liberal principles. Despite large similarities to Locke's political philosophy in his Second Treatise on Government there is an interesting sentence to be found in your Declaration of Independece which could never have been written by Locke. It says: "But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them [i.e. the governed] under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." A duty to revolution against Tyranny is only a meaningful idea, if one has an objective idea of civic virtue, but that is precisely the core of the ancient republicanism. You will nowhere find such a phrase in Locke and with good reason, because Locke is a liberal and not a classical republican. Locke only speaks of the right to resistance as he compares the invasion of Government into private life with that of a robber - and killing the robber in self-defense is justified because he invades the natural right of property. Obviously the founding fathers who addded this little subordinate clause in their text to Locke's ideas were, at least in some points, the opposite of adherents to Lockean principles.

One could even go further. The right's enumerated do not include property. But property plays a very important role in Locke's theory of natural rights. Why is it left out and replaced by the pursuit of happiness? There is another point. According to the the declaration of independence, government shall be founded on such principles as "seem most likely to effect their [i.e. the governed] Savety and Happiness." That again sharply constrasts with Locke, who says in his Second Treatise on Government §124: "the great and chief end [...] of men's uniting into commonwealths [...] is the preservation of their property". That means, in liberal political theory with Locke as its prime representative, happiness is not integral to the principles of government. But it was to the founding fathers of the US. This of course is, because their documents do not really belong to the liberal tradition, but deviate from it in important points.

The american system was not solely the result of enacting Locke's political philosophy, there were other influences as well, blackstone, montesquieu, Rutherford, etc. Even from founder to founder there were significantly different ideas at work. This can be seen in the political struggles after the establishment of the country.

However, Locke was a very significant and a very direct influence. While you may not get a duty to revolt from Locke, the right of revolt spoken of is very Lockean. If you were to remove the word duty from the line you quote from the declaration, the rest of it is text book Locke.

However, it is pretty clear I think that there are numerous other influences, such as the general body of enlightenment thought. Jefferson and Franklin in particular were ardent admirers of the French enlightenment philosophers

Also, they were virtually all classically educated, which means liberal exposure to the greeks and the romans. While they may have wanted to create a new kind of government, and even a new kind of society that doesn't mean their ideas of civic virtue and good citizenship were entirely divorced from the classics.

I would agree with you that their ideas of civic virtue etc do much more reflect the ancient republic than modern anarchism etc. This is very clear because it is one of the biggest questions they faced. How do we create this new republic in which people are free to not be involved.. while yet maintaining civic virtue and having people be good citizens?
Montesquieu addressed this question partially with religion and he argued that protestant Christianity, or possibly stoicism, would be the religions best suited to drive people to be good citizens even when they don't have to be.

This is why there often seems to be an almost split personality with some of the founder's views on religion. Several of them (such as Franklin and Jefferson) were not traditional Christians at all, and were either deists, or deistic christians.. yet even those like Franklin who were avowedly not Christian, believed, and clearly stated that Christian moral virtue was essential to being a good citizen. Some even went so far as to say that it was a civic virtue to elect Christians.

As I said before, self interest and commerce were also important, infact essential, to driving people to be active citizens.

The duty of revolt, however, I woul argue, comes not from the idea of civic virtue, but rather of inalienable rights. Inalienable rights can not be taken away.. but they also can not be given away except under special circumstances.

Thus if a person has the inalienable right of liberty, he can not give up that right. It would be a moral evil to do so. In the development of rights theory, all inalienable rights derived from duties that man owed to God. Man owes a duty to God to live a certain way, the result is that every man has a right to be free to live as he determines best because he is trying to fulfill his duty to God (wether he does well or not is not the issue, because if you have a right to fulfill a duty, you have the right to fail as well.
No government has the right to tell you how God wants you to live your life, thus no government has the right to abridge your right of liberty. Further, if you allow a government to do so, you are committing an essentially immoral act.

The caveat to this is that a higher duty can over-ride a lower one. For the highest duty is to love God, the second is to love your neighbor. Thus I can give up my right of life, if by so doing, I fulfill my duty of love to God, or to my neighbor.



On Original Sin,

The phrase original sin can be a little loaded because it usually refers to a specific version of the doctrine held by Augustine and the western Churches (because of Augustine).

The eastern view is a little different, but still has the same basic foundation as "original sin". Both views are based on the idea of the fallen nature. Both agree than man is born in a fallen state and suffers from the effects of fallenness until he is regenerated through Jesus Christ. The main differences between the two are in terms of what exactly the effects of the fallen nature are.

Even here, the two views really agree for the most part in concept, they just phrase things differently.

For example, in the western view most would say that man's nature is twisted irresistably towards sin so we can not stop sinning, we can not stop being evil, and we can't really do good. However, virtually all in the west would admit that while our nature is twisted towards sin, we still retain the image of God, albeit in a marred, broken sense. Thus we are still capable of 'good actions' in a sense because we still reflect God in a sense.

In the east they would say that man's nature is not twisted towards sin irresistably, but rather that man's fallen state is mortality. You are not compelled to do evil, nor are you compelled not to do good. However, no matter what you do, you are mortal, and subject to death unless you partake in the life of God through Jesus Christ.
 
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Nadiine

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Twisted:
As Franklin put it: You have the right to pursue happiness, you have to catch it yourself. Nothing wrong with that.
yes, the right to pursue prosperity is not near the same as taking away from the rich & handing it out to lower pay grades.

Robin Hood politics -
 
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