Sober minded

[Colter]

Prove it.

Your dedication to Godless ideals is the proof of OP's warning.

 

[True Scotsman]

Your dedication to Godless ideals is the proof of OP's warning.

I'm dedicated to reason. Do you claim that reason is Godless? She has made a number of assertions amounting to saying it is dangerous to think for one's self. I want to know why I should accept this and I require more than someone's say so. If she thinks it is dangerous to think for one's self then how did she come to her beliefs, without any thought?

 

[siralex172]

*He not she, I'm male
True Scotsman, my own thoughts test pretty much everything I see, everybody does. Its just all about what type of filter you're using for yourself.. I have already chose God and I never want to forsake him. Jesus has set me free, free from the trap which makes men dwell on only things of this earth. God bless bro.

 

[True Scotsman]

*He not she, I'm male
True Scotsman, my own thoughts test pretty much everything I see, everybody does. Its just all about what type of filter you're using for yourself.. I have already chose God and I never want to forsake him. Jesus has set me free, free from the trap which makes men dwell on only things of this earth. God bless bro.

Sorry about that lad. That's fine. It's just that I get called irrational all the time for not believing and yet when I press for why I should believe, I never get any objective evidence. I'd just like to point out that in saying that relying on your own understanding, or reason, is dangerous, you are implying that you arrived at your philosophy and accepted it without thought. Either that or you are contradicting your own statement.

 

[Dave Ellis]

. Yes I suppose Christianity needs to protect you from outside teachings because this world is not too good and the devil is seeking people to devour.

If Christianity is true, it should require no protection from differing opinions. Only false beliefs require the silencing of opposition to remain widely held.

Maybe its because of my age I could be not open minded enough or my own beliefs, but I'm still believing in Jesus and God no matter what, which is the important thing right?

No, that's not the important thing. The important thing is to believe things which are actually true, and to not believe things which are actually false. In short, the important thing is to correlate your internal view of reality to actual reality as best as possible.

If you believe in God and Jesus, and your beliefs are in error, that can lead you to a lot of problems in your life. As such, you should take an impartial look at the arguments for both sides, and accept or reject belief based on those arguments individual merits.

 

[Colter]

I'm dedicated to reason. Do you claim that reason is Godless? She has made a number of assertions amounting to saying it is dangerous to think for one's self. I want to know why I should accept this and I require more than someone's say so. If she thinks it is dangerous to think for one's self then how did she come to her beliefs, without any thought?

I'm not really too thrilled about the fearful spirit of the OP, it does border on cultic narrowness, fear of truths other than those one might get second hand. I also find it genuinely odd that people seem to have more faith in the Satan creature than God. On the one hand they hold steadfastly to One God, but then claim Satan is God of this world. Lots of inconsistent speculation in that.

To your questions, I think reason is a vital component to thinking but mind has the ability to correlate reason with experience and spiritual truth and arrive at a comprehensive philosophical view.

Today we are born into a ready made religion, well meaning people instruct believers to "beware" of the pitfalls, some are legitimate concerns.

You though have made your decision, now you promote a godless philosophy.

 

[True Scotsman]

I'm not really too thrilled about the fearful spirit of the OP, it does border on cultic narrowness, fear of truths other than those one might get second hand. I also find it genuinely odd that people seem to have more faith in the Satan creature than God. On the one hand they hold steadfastly to One God, but then claim Satan is God of this world. Lots of inconsistent speculation in that.

To your questions, I think reason is a vital component to thinking but mind has the ability to correlate reason with experience and spiritual truth and arrive at a comprehensive philosophical view.

Today we are born into a ready made religion, well meaning people instruct believers to "beware" of the pitfalls, some are legitimate concerns.

You though have made your decision, now you promote a godless philosophy.

I promote reason as one's only guide to knowledge. It's not my fault if a philosophical idea does not stand to reason. What should I do when I come across one of these ideas? Should I lower the bar? Should I do as you do and many other people do, and just say I'll use reason when it suits my purposes and the rest of the time I'll just say that "logic is overrated"(your words)? What if a philosophical idea contradicts known facts? Should I just go ahead and accept it anyway because it makes me feel good?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Colossians 2:8 ESV / 251 helpful votes

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."

Philosophy to me is dangerous, because its quite possible it can contradict God and makes us believe in our own understandings which is risky because Satan can munipuliate your perception if you aren't steadfast to God.

Most important advice is never close your mind, because you will be so easily entangled and trapped in views which may not be truth.
If you remain in faith to Jesus he can keep your mind open and feed you so you don't become weary.

Siralex,

Brother, I appreciate the "warning" you are attempting to give to everyone, but if we look carefully at what the Apostle Paul is saying in Colossians 2:8, I don't think we'll actually see him saying that philosophy is dangerous. Rather, Paul was referring to the 'usages' that the Greek and/or Gnostic philosophy of his time period might have been put to that posed a danger to Christian faith.

Peace

 

[variant]

Colossians 2:8 ESV / 251 helpful votes

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."

Philosophy to me is dangerous, because its quite possible it can contradict God and makes us believe in our own understandings which is risky because Satan can munipuliate your perception if you aren't steadfast to God.

Most important advice is never close your mind, because you will be so easily entangled and trapped in views which may not be truth.
If you remain in faith to Jesus he can keep your mind open and feed you so you don't become weary.

Instead of the bold try this:

Religion to me is dangerous, because its quite possible it can contradict God and makes us believe in our own understandings which is risky because Satan can munipuliate your perception if you aren't steadfast to God.

Now, do you see the problem?

 

[stevevw]

I really wish you could see the irony of the first two statements I quoted here in relation to the third. It's staggering. Imagine, if you will, that you said them in reverse order. You're basically saying...

Jesus made the claim that was a living embodiment of truth and life and "the way" (whatever that refers to). We have to agree with all this because...you know...he's Jesus! I don't know why people get hung up on the religious aspects of christianity...why can't they just use my religious figure as a role model?

Are you seeing the irony yet? You're basically asking people to trust a character based on his religious claims while telling them to ignore the religious aspects of Jesus and focus on him as a regular guy lol.

No that is what you have interpreted it as. I was saying if we take away the religious aspect that seems to repel people because it has "God" associated with it. It seems as soon as you mention God its like a sudden defenses up and reaction of no I'm not having that sort of bull. So I am saying if we just look at what is being said without all that we can see that there is a lot of good stuff. If you used Jesus as the role model then we would have a good example to go by. If we used the teachings of Jesus to go by then we would have a good model for life. People are quick and willing to put forward many other role models like pop and sports stars because they are cool or seem to portray success with wealth. They look like they are happy and they look good so many think, oh I wish I could be like them. But what better role model than Jesus.

So I am trying to separate the two things. One is the things Jesus said and two is the person who Jesus claimed to be. As far as Jesus the person that is something that comes down to a faith. Because the other aspect that makes Him different to all others is that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. So it wasn't just another person coming along and being a role model or stating a way of life to live by that will make it better. He was saying that this is it, this is the best way and there is no other. Others are claiming many things but I am telling you the truth, I am the truth. So this comes down to trust and faith. You either believe Him or not.

And the other thing that makes all this different is not only is He saying I am the way and truth but that I can give you the ways and means to achieve what you are looking for. So its one thing to put yourself up there and say look at me I have the answers. Its another to say I can make those things happen if you believe in Me by transforming you as a person with a power that is beyond what you and other humans can possibly possess and are capable of achieving.

If you were serious about this though, I can actually tell you why I don't focus on his regular guy aspects...

Please tell me.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Its a mere warning to be cautious. Philosophy sometimes can be a substitute for God's word. And it can be very tempting to believe it. I take it back If I sounded like I was totally against it.. I believe in the Holy Spirit and the idea people are helping each other to become better people is something so vital.

I don't wanna argue I just wanted to share a bible verse so people know philosophy can sometimes have the ability to trap people.

Philosophy and theology are separate, if closely related, items. They might influence each other, but they aren't interchangeable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Please tell me.

I don't believe he existed.

 

[bhsmte]

If Christianity is true, it should require no protection from differing opinions. Only false beliefs require the silencing of opposition to remain widely held.



No, that's not the important thing. The important thing is to believe things which are actually true, and to not believe things which are actually false. In short, the important thing is to correlate your internal view of reality to actual reality as best as possible.

If you believe in God and Jesus, and your beliefs are in error, that can lead you to a lot of problems in your life. As such, you should take an impartial look at the arguments for both sides, and accept or reject belief based on those arguments individual merits.

I am with you.

Some claim Christianity is the absolute truth, yet they also talk as if it needs protection against these outside forces at the same time.

To me, this seems to be more fear than anything else. If you possess the real truth and are so certain of it, why the fear?

 

[siralex172]

"If you possess the real truth and are so certain of it, why the fear?"
I never mentioned to be fearful I said its a "mere warning to be cautious" about Philosophy.. You know, ways it can give us a different view which contradicts Jesus teachings..

Proverbs 14:16 "The wise are cautious and avoid danger; fools plunge ahead with great confidence."

 

[bhsmte]

"If you possess the real truth and are so certain of it, why the fear?"
I never mentioned to be fearful I said its a "mere warning to be cautious"..

Proverbs 14:16 "The wise are cautious and avoid danger; fools plunge ahead with great confidence."

What you are saying then, is this great truth you possess, is in danger.

Why would a truth provided by God as you claim, be in danger from anything?

 

[Dave Ellis]

"If you possess the real truth and are so certain of it, why the fear?" I never mentioned to be fearful I said its a "mere warning to be cautious" about Philosophy.. You know, ways it can give us a different view which contradicts Jesus teachings..

But what if Jesus was wrong?

Proverbs 14:16 "The wise are cautious and avoid danger; fools plunge ahead with great confidence."

I'm not saying this to be insulting, I am saying this to open your eyes a bit.

With that in mind, you're the most confident person on this thread about your own beliefs. We are advocating examining every possible position, looking at the evidence, and accepting those claims which can stand up to scrutiny the best.

You are already assuming without question that you have the correct answer and view anything else as a threat to making you change your mind.

So ironically, that piece of scripture is directed mostly at people like yourself.

 

[stevevw]

But what if Jesus was wrong?

But what if he is right. You will never know unless you have a go. It many will reject the message before they even consider giving it a go. If it doesn't work then what harm is done.

You are already assuming without question that you have the correct answer and view anything else as a threat to making you change your mind.

So ironically, that piece of scripture is directed mostly at people like yourself.

Its directed at everyone. If we take what Jesus said at face value then we have a person who claimed to be God and that He was the way and truth. So we would either have to say He was mad or insane. So here we have a person claiming something and saying believe me. We can either believe that or not and there's no middle ground.

 

[Dave Ellis]

But what if he is right. You will never know unless you have a go. It many will reject the message before they even consider giving it a go. If it doesn't work then what harm is done.

You avoided answering my question.

That being said, I have given Christianity a go, I was a Christian at one point. I've read the bible cover to cover and I've read books from both the pro-christian side, and the anti-christian side.

Given the rather extensive research I've done over the span of many years, the case for Christianity simply does not hold any water at all.

Now that being said, answer my question.... What if Jesus was wrong?

Its directed at everyone. If we take what Jesus said at face value then we have a person who claimed to be God and that He was the way and truth. So we would either have to say He was mad or insane. So here we have a person claiming something and saying believe me. We can either believe that or not and there's no middle ground.

This is a common argument, it was first put forward by C.S. Lewis in his "lunatic, liar or lord" argument.

The problem with his argument is that it leaves out a number of very viable options.

For example, Jesus may have been honestly mistaken. There are plenty of people even in the modern day who really do believe they are the messiah, but they are not.

Or another viable option is that Jesus never actually made those claims, or that Jesus never actually existed at all.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This is a common argument, it was first put forward by C.S. Lewis in his "lunatic, liar or lord" argument.

Lord, Liar, Lunatic,
Mistaken, Misunderstood, Misrepresented, Mythical.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[siralex172]

You avoided answering my question.

That being said, I have given Christianity a go, I was a Christian at one point. I've read the bible cover to cover and I've read books from both the pro-christian side, and the anti-christian side.

Given the rather extensive research I've done over the span of many years, the case for Christianity simply does not hold any water at all.

Now that being said, answer my question.... What if Jesus was wrong?

And in that time of reading God's word, what came into your mind, did you feel different than say reading a newspaper article?



"What if Jesus was wrong?" Well he has given this world so much of an example to follow, examples: Treating others the way you would want them to treat you, loving thy neighbour, not condemning or judging anyone, etc. If we try to live in this way, this world would definitely become a better place