Sober minded

[stevevw]

You avoided answering my question.

That being said, I have given Christianity a go, I was a Christian at one point. I've read the bible cover to cover and I've read books from both the pro-christian side, and the anti-christian side.

Given the rather extensive research I've done over the span of many years, the case for Christianity simply does not hold any water at all.

When you say it doesn't hold any water what do you mean. Doesn't hold water as a good way of life or doesn't cure people or what. I dont understand what you mean. If you just looked at the teachings then it has to hold water because there is nothing wrong with the teachings. Love others as yourself, the good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, the meek shall inherit the earth, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied, Blessed are they who are merciful because mercies will be upon them, whoever is even angry at his brother is in danger of judgement, being kind to others is more important than money ect ect. Theres nothing wrong with any of those.

But one thing I notice is you said that you studied the bible and checked it all out. You said you were a Christian at one point but did you give your life to Jesus. That can be something that people think they have done but they still dont let go completely. It is especially hard for some who are more independent and wealthy. You have to abandon all this world and all the things you want and put God first. This is why it says its harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Because they are still tied to this world. Thats why some drug addicts and those who have lost everything can find God when there is no other hope.

Now that being said, answer my question.... What if Jesus was wrong?

Well I guess it would be back to the drawing board. No big deal. But I like the way of life anyway. I have never been more happier and at peace. I have a hope and substance to my life. So even if it is wrong it sure is a good way to live. In this world where so many end their life because they see nothing Jesus can be a beacon in the night. But you have to believe in what He says and give yourself completely. When Jesus says come to me those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest He will do what He says if you trust in Him.

This is a common argument, it was first put forward by C.S. Lewis in his "lunatic, liar or lord" argument.

The problem with his argument is that it leaves out a number of very viable options.

For example, Jesus may have been honestly mistaken. There are plenty of people even in the modern day who really do believe they are the messiah, but they are not.

But Jesus is being specific in saying He is the Son of God and He was God. Even to the point of going to His death. Normally people who say they are the messiah maybe being a bit lose with the term and they mean they are a great prophet. But still they normally are a bit knocked off even if its socially maladjusted and this can be seen in their behavior. But when someone is specific to the point of death they must carry that belief to an extreme. That is when you have to question their state of mind. There is definitely some sort of personality disorder going on. Plus Jesus's actions influenced others to do the same and still do today. You cant say so many have been so deluded and unstable enough to do that for so long.

Or another viable option is that Jesus never actually made those claims, or that Jesus never actually existed at all.

Well most modern scholars acknowledge there was a person called Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilot for claiming to be the Son of God. And like I said there are many witnesses who have either written down about this themselves or others have had that info passed to them.

There are 2nd generation disciples and witnesses who know of the originals who also testify and so on. The ways they are telling and describing all of this and the details is to real and is credible. Many testify and swear as witnesses that what they are saying is true. So to fob it all off would mean ignoring a large amount of direct and indirect evidence that we would easily except for any other history we have of any other persons and times.

 

[essentialsaltes]

But Jesus is being specific in saying He is the Son of God and He was God.

He says it so rarely and so obliquely that I find it easier to imagine those being later editorial choices of the early church.

Normally people who say they are the messiah maybe being a bit lose with the term

I think you'll find it is Christianity that is loose with the term. "In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David."

Well most modern scholars acknowledge there was a person called Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilot for claiming to be the Son of God.

No, it was for claiming (allegedly) to be the King of the Jews.

 

[bhsmte]

When you say it doesn't hold any water what do you mean. Doesn't hold water as a good way of life or doesn't cure people or what. I dont understand what you mean. If you just looked at the teachings then it has to hold water because there is nothing wrong with the teachings. Love others as yourself, the good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, the meek shall inherit the earth, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied, Blessed are they who are merciful because mercies will be upon them, whoever is even angry at his brother is in danger of judgement, being kind to others is more important than money ect ect. Theres nothing wrong with any of those.

But one thing I notice is you said that you studied the bible and checked it all out. You said you were a Christian at one point but did you give your life to Jesus. That can be something that people think they have done but they still dont let go completely. It is especially hard for some who are more independent and wealthy. You have to abandon all this world and all the things you want and put God first. This is why it says its harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Because they are still tied to this world. Thats why some drug addicts and those who have lost everything can find God when there is no other hope.

Well I guess it would be back to the drawing board. No big deal. But I like the way of life anyway. I have never been more happier and at peace. I have a hope and substance to my life. So even if it is wrong it sure is a good way to live. In this world where so many end their life because they see nothing Jesus can be a beacon in the night. But you have to believe in what He says and give yourself completely. When Jesus says come to me those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest He will do what He says if you trust in Him.

But Jesus is being specific in saying He is the Son of God and He was God. Even to the point of going to His death. Normally people who say they are the messiah maybe being a bit lose with the term and they mean they are a great prophet. But still they normally are a bit knocked off even if its socially maladjusted and this can be seen in their behavior. But when someone is specific to the point of death they must carry that belief to an extreme. That is when you have to question their state of mind. There is definitely some sort of personality disorder going on. Plus Jesus's actions influenced others to do the same and still do today. You cant say so many have been so deluded and unstable enough to do that for so long.

Well most modern scholars acknowledge there was a person called Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilot for claiming to be the Son of God. And like I said there are many witnesses who have either written down about this themselves or others have had that info passed to them.

There are 2nd generation disciples and witnesses who know of the originals who also testify and so on. The ways they are telling and describing all of this and the details is to real and is credible. Many testify and swear as witnesses that what they are saying is true. So to fob it all off would mean ignoring a large amount of direct and indirect evidence that we would easily except for any other history we have of any other persons and times.

Jesus is only quoted and saying he is the son of God in John, which is the latest gospel and the one considered to be the least historically credible by many NT historians.

Why would it be, that Matthew, Mark and Luke, would miss such a vitally important point about Jesus (that he is the son of God) and never mention it?

 

[Colter]

Jesus is only quoted and saying he is the son of God in John, which is the latest gospel and the one considered to be the least historically credible by many NT historians.

Why would it be, that Matthew, Mark and Luke, would miss such a vitally important point about Jesus (that he is the son of God) and never mention it?

Matthew an apostle

Mark, not an apostle

Luke, not an apostle

John an apostle, he included things in his book that had been omitted from the others.

 

[bhsmte]

Matthew an apostle

Mark, not an apostle

Luke, not an apostle

John an apostle, he included things in his book that had been omitted from the others.

Funny that the latest gospel, written 60-70 years after Jesus was crucified, would contain all this information, the other gospels written closer to the events would miss.

Again, why would the three previous gospels completely miss such an important point; Jesus being God?

Also, John is written in a completely different writing style than Matthew, Mark and Luke and has content, that has been shown to not be in the oldest copies of John, but were added much later.

Many NT historians have significant credibility issues with John, for various reasons.

 

[Dave Ellis]

And in that time of reading God's word, what came into your mind, did you feel different than say reading a newspaper article?

Not particularly. I thought it was a rather poorly written bronze age text full of a couple pieces of good advice, and a whole lot of barbarism.

"What if Jesus was wrong?" Well he has given this world so much of an example to follow, examples: Treating others the way you would want them to treat you

That concept did not originate with Jesus. We have philosophical writings that espouse that same concept from centuries before Jesus time.

No question it's a good idea, but Jesus didn't introduce it to humanity.

loving thy neighbour,

That also does not come from Jesus, even within scripture. It's one of the 10 commandments, which comes from the Old Testament. However, that concept doesn't originate with the Bible either.

not condemning or judging anyone, etc. If we try to live in this way, this world would definitely become a better place

However Jesus condemned and judged many people in scripture. If condemning and judging people is a bad thing to do, then why did he do it himself? Does that not make him a hypocrite?

 

[Colter]

Funny that the latest gospel, written 60-70 years after Jesus was crucified, would contain all this information, the other gospels written closer to the events would miss.

Again, why would the three previous gospels completely miss such an important point; Jesus being God?

Also, John is written in a completely different writing style than Matthew, Mark and Luke and has content, that has been shown to not be in the oldest copies of John, but were added much later.

Many NT historians have significant credibility issues with John, for various reasons.

Its not strange at all, many seemed to think the return of Christ was eminent. Writing things down for the church going forward became more and more important as time passed. The revelation to John on Patmos was 50 years after Jesus left.

Writing styles for all the NT should be viewed through the practice of using understudies a writers. ALSO, the gospels suffered tampering so, do with that what you will, you lost faith and now pick flaws.

 

[bhsmte]

Its not strange at all, many seemed to think the return of Christ was eminent. Writing things down for the church going forward became more and more important as time passed. The revelation to John on Patmos was 50 years after Jesus left.

Writing styles for all the NT should be viewed through the practice of using understudies a writers. ALSO, the gospels suffered tampering so, do with that what you will, you lost faith and now pick flaws.

You do realize, even Christian scholars agree, John was not written by John and the other 3 gospels, were not penned by the names attached to them?

All four gospels, are anonymous, names were attached to them by the powers at be, much much later.

 

[Colter]

You do realize, even Christian scholars agree, John was not written by John and the other 3 gospels, were not penned by the names attached to them?

All four gospels, are anonymous, names were attached to them by the powers at be, much much later.

Yes, I do, and you make a legitimate point about critical scholarship of these matters. When I consider the NT it occurs to me that if someone was going to lie and perpetuate a fraud, they would have done a much better Job of it. But the conflicting, fragmented, opinionated and even contaminated material and theology, is what one would expect when all things are considered such as the age in which it occurred, lack of printing, official scholarship, real historians etc.


This is why i find the UB explanation of these things believable:

(1342.4) 121:8.9 As material for the compilation of his Gospel, Luke first depended upon the story of Jesus’ life as Paul had related it to him. Luke’s Gospel is, therefore, in some ways the Gospel according to Paul. But Luke had other sources of information. He not only interviewed scores of eyewitnesses to the numerous episodes of Jesus’ life which he records, but he also had with him a copy of Mark’s Gospel, that is, the first four fifths, Isador’s narrative, and a brief record made in the year A.D. 78 at Antioch by a believer named Cedes. Luke also had a mutilated and much-edited copy of some notes purported to have been made by the Apostle Andrew.

(1342.5) 121:8.10 4. The Gospel of John. The Gospel according to John relates much of Jesus’ work in Judea and around Jerusalem which is not contained in the other records. This is the so-called Gospel according to John the son of Zebedee, and though John did not write it, he did inspire it. Since its first writing it has several times been edited to make it appear to have been written by John himself. When this record was made, John had the other Gospels, and he saw that much had been omitted; accordingly, in the year A.D. 101 he encouraged his associate, Nathan, a Greek Jew from Caesarea, to begin the writing. John supplied his material from memory and by reference to the three records already in existence. He had no written records of his own. The Epistle known as “First John” was written by John himself as a covering letter for the work which Nathan executed under his direction.​

(1342.6) 121:8.11 All these writers presented honest pictures of Jesus as they saw, remembered, or had learned of him, and as their concepts of these distant events were affected by their subsequent espousal of Paul’s theology of Christianity. And these records, imperfect as they are, have been sufficient to change the course of the history of Urantia for almost two thousand years.​

 

[stevevw]

You do realize, even Christian scholars agree, John was not written by John and the other 3 gospels, were not penned by the names attached to them?

All four gospels, are anonymous, names were attached to them by the powers at be, much much later.

Thats a bit deceptive. They were written before the end of the first century. The disciples were simple fisherman so they weren't exactly literary scholars. So as it was often done back then that a scribe would write on behalf of someone else. But there is some debate about one or two of the Gospels being written by the disciples themselves but with a scribe. Matthew and John are said to be the accounts of the disciples Mathew and John but written by someone on their behalf.

The disciples had disciples and the stories were kept alive and very much fresh. Polycarp was a disciple of John the apostle for example and was ordained by him. So John would have been sharing with him all that he knew and seen. So as these stories were being told so often someone had decided to write the accounts down while they were still fresh. It stands to reason that sooner or later there would be a scribe or someone would have employed a scribe to put in writing what had been told and shared.

The Jewish tradition was to continually share and pass down the stories of the gospels so they were kept fresh and alive. Some of Paul's letters were written very soon after Christ as he was going around spreading the gospel soon after Christ died. His words show that it wasn't to long afterwards as he is reminding the churches and people of Christ and what happened in the recent past tense.

 

[Dave Ellis]

When you say it doesn't hold any water what do you mean. Doesn't hold water as a good way of life or doesn't cure people or what. I dont understand what you mean. If you just looked at the teachings then it has to hold water because there is nothing wrong with the teachings. Love others as yourself, the good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, the meek shall inherit the earth, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied, Blessed are they who are merciful because mercies will be upon them, whoever is even angry at his brother is in danger of judgement, being kind to others is more important than money ect ect. Theres nothing wrong with any of those.

I meant it doesn't hold water in that the key claims made by the scriptures are very likely false. In the same sense you don't believe Muhammad or Joseph Smith were divine prophets of God, I don't believe Jesus was anything special either, if he existed at all.

There's no question there's pieces of good and moral advice in various parts of the bible (both old and new testament), but there's also a lot of very backward, bigoted and downright evil teachings as well (both in the old and new testaments).

However, whether the teachings are moral or not has no real bearing on if the overall framework of the religion itself is true or false. I believe it is false.

But one thing I notice is you said that you studied the bible and checked it all out. You said you were a Christian at one point but did you give your life to Jesus. That can be something that people think they have done but they still dont let go completely.

You're treading very close to the "no true scotsman" fallacy here...

Suggesting I was never a true Christian simply because I wound up rejecting the belief system is fallacious reasoning.

But just to restate my point, at one point I believed Jesus was the saviour, and I bought into Christian theology unquestioningly. I was active in Sunday school, and though the church youth group. Even performed some music in front of the congregation a few times as a teen.

It is especially hard for some who are more independent and wealthy. You have to abandon all this world and all the things you want and put God first. This is why it says its harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Because they are still tied to this world. Thats why some drug addicts and those who have lost everything can find God when there is no other hope.

While I am an independent person, I'm certainly not a wealthy one I make a slightly above average income, however up until about three months ago, I made a below average income. Not that it's unreasonable, most people in their 20s make a below average income, and I'm 31 now, which is around the time you start making better money. I've never been poor, I've always been at least self sufficient, but I've never been wealthy either.

Lastly, as for your requirements there... if god is shown to clearly exist, that is a time to abandon everything for him (if that's actually what he wants). Until god can be demonstrated to exist however, you can't make a rational case for abandoning everything in your life for what might just be a figment of your imagination.

Well I guess it would be back to the drawing board. No big deal. But I like the way of life anyway. I have never been more happier and at peace. I have a hope and substance to my life. So even if it is wrong it sure is a good way to live. In this world where so many end their life because they see nothing Jesus can be a beacon in the night. But you have to believe in what He says and give yourself completely. When Jesus says come to me those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest He will do what He says if you trust in Him.

That's a very dangerous way to live.

There's nothing wrong with taking good advice from any source (may it be the bible or anywhere else) and applying that to the way you live. However, when you take it a step further and buy into the mythology, that leaves you open to taking seriously some of the more barbaric passages in the bible as well.

Your mindset is the only way liberal Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) can descend into fundamentalism.

Now of course, not everyone will do that, in fact only a small minority will. However you still leave yourself open to the risk, and you help enable those who do go the fundamentalist route.

But Jesus is being specific in saying He is the Son of God and He was God. Even to the point of going to His death.

Jim Jones did that too, as have many other "messiahs" who have gone to their death.

Normally people who say they are the messiah maybe being a bit lose with the term and they mean they are a great prophet. But still they normally are a bit knocked off even if its socially maladjusted and this can be seen in their behavior.

Sure.

But when someone is specific to the point of death they must carry that belief to an extreme. That is when you have to question their state of mind. There is definitely some sort of personality disorder going on. Plus Jesus's actions influenced others to do the same and still do today.

I would completely agree if someone claims they are the messiah you should question their state of mind.

You cant say so many have been so deluded and unstable enough to do that for so long.

Why not?

Well most modern scholars acknowledge there was a person called Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilot for claiming to be the Son of God.

Christian scholars typically believe that, however of course if they didn't, then they wouldn't be Christian scholars. Among secular scholars, the Jesus myth theory is still no question a minority position, but is quickly gaining legitimacy. I think a fairly strong case could be made for the point.

And like I said there are many witnesses who have either written down about this themselves or others have had that info passed to them.

We have no testimony from witnesses at all.

There are 2nd generation disciples and witnesses who know of the originals who also testify and so on.

Those people are not witnesses. They're passing along hearsay.

The ways they are telling and describing all of this and the details is to real and is credible.

Such as?

Many testify and swear as witnesses that what they are saying is true.

Every religion has those people. There's apparently tons of witnesses who saw Muhammad split the moon in two. We also have recorded video of people claiming to have directly witnessed Jim Jones producing bread and water for all his followers out of thin air.

I'm sure you don't accept the claims of those witnesses, so what makes your witnesses any more credible?

So to fob it all off would mean ignoring a large amount of direct and indirect evidence that we would easily except for any other history we have of any other persons and times.

We have no direct evidence for anything about Jesus at all. I'm not sure there's anything you could even call indirect evidence either.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Matthew an apostle

Mark, not an apostle

Luke, not an apostle

John an apostle, he included things in his book that had been omitted from the others.

However the book of John was not written by John.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When you say it doesn't hold any water what do you mean. Doesn't hold water as a good way of life or doesn't cure people or what. I dont understand what you mean. If you just looked at the teachings then it has to hold water because there is nothing wrong with the teachings. Love others as yourself, the good Samaritan, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, the meek shall inherit the earth, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied, Blessed are they who are merciful because mercies will be upon them, whoever is even angry at his brother is in danger of judgement, being kind to others is more important than money ect ect. Theres nothing wrong with any of those.

But one thing I notice is you said that you studied the bible and checked it all out. You said you were a Christian at one point but did you give your life to Jesus. That can be something that people think they have done but they still dont let go completely. It is especially hard for some who are more independent and wealthy. You have to abandon all this world and all the things you want and put God first. This is why it says its harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Because they are still tied to this world. Thats why some drug addicts and those who have lost everything can find God when there is no other hope.

Well I guess it would be back to the drawing board. No big deal. But I like the way of life anyway. I have never been more happier and at peace. I have a hope and substance to my life. So even if it is wrong it sure is a good way to live. In this world where so many end their life because they see nothing Jesus can be a beacon in the night. But you have to believe in what He says and give yourself completely. When Jesus says come to me those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest He will do what He says if you trust in Him.

But Jesus is being specific in saying He is the Son of God and He was God. Even to the point of going to His death. Normally people who say they are the messiah maybe being a bit lose with the term and they mean they are a great prophet. But still they normally are a bit knocked off even if its socially maladjusted and this can be seen in their behavior. But when someone is specific to the point of death they must carry that belief to an extreme. That is when you have to question their state of mind. There is definitely some sort of personality disorder going on. Plus Jesus's actions influenced others to do the same and still do today. You cant say so many have been so deluded and unstable enough to do that for so long.

Well most modern scholars acknowledge there was a person called Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilot for claiming to be the Son of God. And like I said there are many witnesses who have either written down about this themselves or others have had that info passed to them.

There are 2nd generation disciples and witnesses who know of the originals who also testify and so on. The ways they are telling and describing all of this and the details is to real and is credible. Many testify and swear as witnesses that what they are saying is true. So to fob it all off would mean ignoring a large amount of direct and indirect evidence that we would easily except for any other history we have of any other persons and times.

If I told you how to live your life...would you follow/obey me? Why or why not?

 

[stevevw]

I meant it doesn't hold water in that the key claims made by the scriptures are very likely false. In the same sense you don't believe Muhammad or Joseph Smith were divine prophets of God, I don't believe Jesus was anything special either, if he existed at all.

OK this is going to be a long post in the end so I might break it up.

[FONT=&quot]Well Mohammad was a man and never claimed to be God. He was actually trying to change the message of Jesus 600 years after Jesus came. He claimed to be the last great prophet that would restore the message of God (Allah) of the great men of the bible like Adam, Noah and Moses. So they are really changing the original bible. But it is the Koran that is holy and not the prophets according to Islam. So its a book that holds all the sway.

But Mohammad is just a man and never claimed any greatness. He has flaws and they can be seen. His parents wanted him to join the army as a warrior. He married a nine year old when he was 53 and consummated their marriage. He killed many or had them killed for ridiculous reasons like someone recited poetry about him that he didn't like. He wasn't God and in that position to decide this yet elevated himself to that. He said that Jesus was just a man yet believed in the old testament God and great men. Jesus can be traced back through the line of great holy men back to Adam the first man.

I would expect Joseph smith to be the same just one of many men who claim things. Jesus was the Son of God and not a man. He was God and was witnessed doing great things. This is different to a mere man claiming things. Mohammad claimed his visions in a dream. There are no witnesses and it is coincided with battles to win power to be in a position of authority. So there are a lot of man made things about Mohammad and Joseph Smith.

[/FONT]

There's no question there's pieces of good and moral advice in various parts of the bible (both old and new testament), but there's also a lot of very backward, bigoted and downright evil teachings as well (both in the old and new testaments).

[FONT=&quot]I am not sure what you believed when you were a Christian. Because you see these stories as evil shows you either once seen them in Gods light and now cant because of a dis believing heart or just didn't understand in the first place. By the sounds of how you described your belief in that you researched the bible and didn't mention anything about being born again I wonder if you didn't treat it all as a sort of club membership or learning a subject at school.

The bible is not just a historical record and some stories about conquests by earthly men. It has a divine meaning and is interlinked with other parts of the bible. These give it the proper context and meanings. The old testament is a hard book to understand and you need the Holy spirit to guide you in this. But you also need to understand the contexts or language and the meanings of these things.[/FONT]

You're treading very close to the "no true scotsman" fallacy here...

Suggesting I was never a true Christian simply because I wound up rejecting the belief system is fallacious reasoning.

[FONT=&quot]Maybe but it can be true as well. The other is what also happened to me. I was a Christian and knew Gods love but was not strong at that time and gave into the ways of the world. I followed my desires and pleasures for money and relationships and things. This eventually almost diminished the flame of God. I was skeptical and believed in evolution. I seen the logic of it and questioned and challenged God and the bible.

But looking back the flame of God had not completely gone. That was part of my strengthening and God was making me stronger and more assured. I found God again as I didn't think I was worthy. But I can see it was faith that brought me back and not logical answers and evidence that would prove God or not. Its that faith even when it seems that it goes against what you think makes sense in this world. That is the key.[/FONT]

But just to restate my point, at one point I believed Jesus was the saviour, and I bought into Christian theology unquestioningly. I was active in Sunday school, and though the church youth group. Even performed some music in front of the congregation a few times as a teen.

[FONT=&quot]Yes I was also young and questioned things. It is natural especially as a young person. Then you are not completely sure of yourself. Some can be easily swayed. The ways of the world and doubt can quickly fill that gap and before you know it you are moving away from God. Then its not as if one day you believed and the next you didn't. It is a long period of changing your beliefs and replacing them with man made thinking that destroys faith. Its normally from just giving into doing things your way and following your own desires in this world.

Its hard because as a young person you have strong desires and wants. You can be going through the motions and not really committing or believing. Just like you belong to a club or organization than truly being saved. There are many that do the same. They live a worldly life while going through the ritual of going to church. They think they can do all the things that a non believer can do and by going to church it makes them saved. In fact the bible says this is one of the biggest reasons why many will not be saved because they didn't really know Jesus. But I am not saying this is you , I am just saying how this can happen in my experience and observations.

[/FONT]

While I am an independent person, I'm certainly not a wealthy one I make a slightly above average income, however up until about three months ago, I made a below average income. Not that it's unreasonable, most people in their 20s make a below average income, and I'm 31 now, which is around the time you start making better money. I've never been poor, I've always been at least self sufficient, but I've never been wealthy either.

[FONT=&quot]I am not saying that the only way is by being in a situation where you need to turn to God. But obviously if you dont get to a point where you see a need and really need and want God then you wont be truly giving in and giving yourself to God and will be holding back. Sometimes it takes a few goes to get to that point.

I guess some people have low thresholds where they see the need quickly or even have come to know God through the love of others or it being introduced to them early. But either way I believe you have to come to a realization of who you are as a sinner and who God is and what He is doing for you through Jesus.

[/FONT]

Lastly, as for your requirements there... if god is shown to clearly exist, that is a time to abandon everything for him (if that's actually what he wants). Until god can be demonstrated to exist however, you can't make a rational case for abandoning everything in your life for what might just be a figment of your imagination.

[FONT=&quot]Yes this is the dilemma of faith. Why should I give up things that I know make sense to me and give me comfort for something that makes no sense in this world. But that is what faith is and if we could prove God through the evidence then there wouldn't be faith and God would be here right now and it would probably be heaven on earth. So in the mean time some how God has to get the message across from a spiritual realm. Something beyond this realm which we know and can see and touch. So its easy for us to go by touch and sight because thats what this reality demands.

But just like someone will give up their life to help others in Gods will or even die for their beliefs they believe that this life is just a drop in the ocean and that there is something greater beyond this. But when you have two different dimensions to contend with its easier to fall back into this one than believe and live for one that is not apparent right away. But God has said we are not completely with any clues and knowledge. He says that Gods laws are written on our hearts so our conscience can remind us that there is something beyond man made truths.

All of creation carries the invisible qualities of God in it. When we look at the universe we see something more than just an accident that happen to produce such great design out of nothing. Its just that the white noise of this world and its constant questioning and pull away from God can block this out and take over. But like with me there was a flicker of a flame that was there and I found it and allowed it to burn even brighter than it ever was.
[/FONT]

 

[stevevw]

That's a very dangerous way to live.

[FONT=&quot]Why if you allow yourself to have an open mind then you can consider all things. You know that you can include the questions that you should be asking yourself despite your beliefs so that you are not blindly stumbling along. It shows that you are not fixated on one thing and you do not desperately have to hold onto this as dependence for your happiness and well being. I can say this because that’s exactly what I do. I have been through enough in life and have lived long enough to be wise as well as smart. My experiences can allow me to take a more confident stand knowing I am in a good position.

[/FONT]

There's nothing wrong with taking good advice from any source (may it be the bible or anywhere else) and applying that to the way you live. However, when you take it a step further and buy into the mythology, that leaves you open to taking seriously some of the more barbaric passages in the bible as well.

[FONT=&quot]You believe its mythology. When you say that you are susceptible to the barbaric things of the Old Testament. This shows me you did not or don’t understand what salvation is. 1st I am saying they were not barbaric in the sense that mankind did them and there was no divine reason of greater good. 2nd it was God who judged and is worthy. And all knowing to do so and you are seeing this from your limited human views.

Christian knows that Jesus came so that we didn't need to do those things in the Old Testament anymore. The laws and Judgment of the Old Testament was the establishment of the laws for mankind and there was a disconnect so it had to be strong. Jesus then came and said you dont need to do all those things to be saved. It is whats in your heart that counts.

So for you to keep referring back to something that is not what salvation is all about shows you either misunderstood it or you have been deceived about what its all about and have forgotten Gods grace in Jesus.

[/FONT]

Your mindset is the only way liberal Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) can descend into fundamentalism.

[FONT=&quot]No my mindset is focused on Jesus. He is the only WAY, TRUTH and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]LIFE[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Look to Jesus and you see God. Look to Jesus and you see how to live. But most important accept and believe in him in your life and you actually change and become like Him. Not man made ideas and ways. I think it’s more dangerous with the ways of the world. Subjective relativism more or less says I am god and have the power. Whatever I say is right and whatever I want to do is all that is important. When this is mixed with society and made to guide us we are then relying of man made ideas, values and views to be our guiding light. And we know from history and in today’s world that humans just can’t get it right.

We pervert and corrupt the truth. We convince ourselves something is OK and its not. There are many people who put their faith in this world and looked to the examples of society and found it lacking. That’s why we have an ever increasing amount of people unhappy and depressed and ending their lives in this world. We should be concerned about the many things that are leading the young and many down a garden path to ruin. Like drugs, sexual immorality and most importantly the man made versions of what peace and happiness is. It is growing and more and more are getting into trouble.
[/FONT]

Now of course, not everyone will do that, in fact only a small minority will. However you still leave yourself open to the risk, and you help enable those who do go the fundamentalist route.

[FONT=&quot]What you are talking about isn't just about religion. This is a human trait and weakness. when you dont have a clear and solid foundation to stand on and know what is clearly right and wrong then you will be like a ship in a storm without a port. You will be attracted to any light out there in the darkness. It happens in business, money, love and many different things in everyday life. Unfortunately people lie and trick us and we can be to trusting. But that can take experience and learning the hard way sometimes. What do they say once bitten twice shy.

So long as you are open to growing as a person and in touch with yourself and the way you are then you should be OK. Some take longer than other and some dont want to face up to themselves at all. But that is not religion that is just the human experience. The bible tells us to check things out and test to see if it inst a false prophet or words.
[/FONT]

Jim Jones did that too, as have many other "messiahs" who have gone to their death.

[FONT=&quot]Yes and they were all fooled. He was a good salesman just like those who take thousands of people’s money in business scams all over the world. Or just like someone who is deceived into a car or into a deal that puts them in danger. But there are obvious things we can see that were not scriptural and were not from God. That was a cult and even devilish cults can fool people. But the best way to fool someone is to be a wolf in sheep's clothing.[/FONT]

I would completely agree if someone claims they are the messiah you should question their state of mind.

[FONT=&quot]Therefore we would have to question the mind of Jesus as He was even more specific. He stated not only was He the Messiah but the one that fulfilled all the prophesies. He was the Son of God and no one could come to God unless through Him. He went around casting out demons and healing people. He was preaching to thousands. Now that would be the mind of a mentally unstable person with some personality problems. And the followers would be along similar lines.
[/FONT]

Christian scholars typically believe that, however of course if they didn't, then they wouldn't be Christian scholars. Among secular scholars, the Jesus myth theory is still no question a minority position, but is quickly gaining legitimacy. I think a fairly strong case could be made for the point.

[FONT=&quot]We are not just talking about religious/Christian scholars but all scholars.
Virtually all scholars who write on the subject accept that Jesus existed.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
[/FONT]

We have no testimony from witnesses at all.

[FONT=&quot]What makes you say that, how do you know that. Are you saying if Jesus was real that those who seen Him and what He done would not have been talked about and then some of that written down. Let’s take any event in history and see if there isn't something written down about it that is close to the source. It’s just something that happens as a matter of course.

Some of that writing is written in the 1st tense and there is good evidence for it being from some who knew of the events. But if the witnesses happen to not write it but someone else did on their behalf what is the difference. If it is fresh and close to the source. If it comes from the witness and is dictated then it is more of less the same.
[/FONT]

Those people are not witnesses. They're passing along hearsay.

You dont know that. [FONT=&quot]Some are passing on that from the witnesses. The witnesses didn’t keep quite and those who seen it didn't just stop talking. It would have been common knowledge amount the Christians. The disciples of the disciples were with the witnesses most of their life. Living and learning with them. They would have had excellent knowledge to know what was happening.

But it’s funny how we can believe other historical writings that are less credible or we can accept testimony of witnesses or those who knew witnesses to events decades after they happen like the holocaust trials and think that stands in court. But like I say it comes down to trust. Did something happen along the lines of what was said all was it all fabrication?
[/FONT]

Such as?

There are many ways probably to many to go into detail here. But little things like there being no mention of the destruction of the temple in 70AD or of Nero's persecution of the Christians in 64AD in the Gospels. This shows they must have been written before then to leave out such a significant piece of prophesy that Jesus spoke about.

The speaking in the 1st tense and the details of small things. Something that would be hard for a forgery such as the intimate details that would have only been known for that time. The fact that some of the contradictions are obvious and someone wanting to forge would ensure things added up and they would put in stuff that would go against the evidence and indicate the opposite. This would be something someone who didn't have anything to hide and was just stating it as it was would write.
archaeology can demonstrate that the places mentioned in the Gospels really existed and that customs, living conditions, topography, household and workplace furniture and tools, roads, coins, buildings and numerous other ‘stage props’ correspond to how the Gospels describe them. It can show that the names of certain characters in the Gospels are accurate, when we find inscriptional references to them elsewhere. Events and teachings ascribed to Jesus become intelligible and therefore plausible when read against everything we know about life in Palestine in the first third of the first century.[7]


Archaeologist Jonathan L. Reed observes that “The many archaeological discoveries relating to people, places, or titles mentioned in Acts do lend credence to its historicity at one level; many of the specific details in Acts are factual.”[8] And as Lee Strobel observes:

in trying to determine if a witness is being truthful, journalists and lawyers will test all the elements of his or her testimony that can be tested. If this investigation reveals that the person was wrong in those details, this casts considerable doubt on the veracity of his or her entire story. However, if the minutiae check out, this is some indication – not conclusive proof but some evidence – that maybe the witness is being reliable in his or her overall account.[9]
Archaeology and the Historical Reliability of the New Testament - bethinking.org


[FONT=&quot]There are numerous other references that I could mention but hre are some links.
Evidence from archaeology for the reliability of the Bible
Nero Persecutes The Christians, 64 A.D.
This link shows the many figures mentioned in the bible that have historical references. Such as Caiaphas, or 'Joseph, who was called Caiaphas', was reigning high priest during the ministry and death of Jesus.
Tiberius Caesar, emperor of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rome[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Luke 3:1), is named in many inscriptions and on Roman coins. Among other accounts, some of his deeds are described by contemporary historian Velleius (died c. 31 CE).[66]
List of biblical figures identified in extra-biblical sources - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[/FONT]

Every religion has those people. There's apparently tons of witnesses who saw Muhammad split the moon in two. We also have recorded video of people claiming to have directly witnessed Jim Jones producing bread and water for all his followers out of thin air.

[FONT=&quot]Well if Mohammad slit the moon the whole world would have seen that. But He doesn't seem to do much and all his visions are dreams and he is by himself. But the other aspect is he is just a man and it is acknowledged. He does some suspect things as a man which cannot be justified. I would like to see that video. I doubt it exists. They were all fooled by a salesman who had the gift of the gab. It was easily seen that he was a fake and just like in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]waco[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Charlie Mason some people are just suckers for believing anything with checking it out properly.
[/FONT]

I'm sure you don't accept the claims of those witnesses, so what makes your witnesses any more credible?

[FONT=&quot]No those examples you listed are not credible. They are of man thinking he is God. There are obvious signs that it was a sham and anyone cane see that. Its like anything, you look a bit closer and you see that the leader has got 3 or 4 women in his bed or he is accumulation large amounts of money. Living like a rock star while preaching. Claims to do miracles but its all a staged act and you can see the props easily. The ones fooled were just that type of person just like anyone who is fooled in love or investments scams. To class the example of Jesus who has lasted 2000 plus years while the others have been exposed is totally wrong.

There is credible evidence for Jesus and there is nothing that shows Him to be a sham. Sure some people will carry on and do some wrong things like try to make out something more than it is. But apart from that the core message and story is still as strong as ever and is being supported still today. But most of all rather than be exposed and shot down in flames through time with broken lives and unnecessary deaths, Jesus has saved lives and changed many for the better.
[/FONT]

We have no direct evidence for anything about Jesus at all. I'm not sure there's anything you could even call indirect evidence either.

Like what. I’ve just cited a stack. Just about all scholars accept Jesus was real. Now that is pretty strong evidence. As far as what He claimed and the miracles He did well you have to rely on witness accounts unless we were there which we were not. So this has to be taken on faith. But we do have some indirect evidence from all the people who are willing to testify as witnesses and lay down their lives for those beliefs.

 

[Dave Ellis]

OK this is going to be a long post in the end so I might break it up.

[FONT=&quot]Well Mohammad was a man and never claimed to be God. He was actually trying to change the message of Jesus 600 years after Jesus came. He claimed to be the last great prophet that would restore the message of God (Allah) of the great men of the bible like Adam, Noah and Moses. So they are really changing the original bible. But it is the Koran that is holy and not the prophets according to Islam. So its a book that holds all the sway.

But Mohammad is just a man and never claimed any greatness. He has flaws and they can be seen. His parents wanted him to join the army as a warrior. He married a nine year old when he was 53 and consummated their marriage. He killed many or had them killed for ridiculous reasons like someone recited poetry about him that he didn't like. He wasn't God and in that position to decide this yet elevated himself to that. He said that Jesus was just a man yet believed in the old testament God and great men. Jesus can be traced back through the line of great holy men back to Adam the first man.

I would expect Joseph smith to be the same just one of many men who claim things. Jesus was the Son of God and not a man. He was God and was witnessed doing great things. This is different to a mere man claiming things. Mohammad claimed his visions in a dream. There are no witnesses and it is coincided with battles to win power to be in a position of authority. So there are a lot of man made things about Mohammad and Joseph Smith.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Whet[FONT=&quot]her you claim you're th[FONT=&quot]e son of god or a divine prophet[FONT=&quot] really doesn't mat[FONT=&quot]ter. Eit[FONT=&quot]her way you're making a wild claim that needs to be backed up.... cl[FONT=&quot]aiming you're the son of god is no more legitimate or worthy of belief tha[FONT=&quot]n [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]claiming[/FONT] you're [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]a divine prophet, or bigfoot.

First off, Jesus (if he existed at all) can't be traced back to Adam since there never was one "first man" named Adam.

However, even if there was a[FONT=&quot]n Adam and the whole genesis creation story [/FONT]was actually true, then every living person[FONT=&quot] on earth could also be traced back to Adam. So I don't really see how this makes Jesus special?

You have a claim that [FONT=&quot]Jesus was the son of god. We have no witnesses or witness accounts of him doing anything.[/FONT] Furthermore, we do have people who clai[FONT=&quot]m to have witnessed Muhammad doing things like splitting t[FONT=&quot]he moon in two (which is where the moon symbol commonly associated with Islam comes from)

For example, here is a piece of "witness testimony": [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abdullah b. Mas'ud (who said): We were along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) at Mina, that moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. Allah's Messenger (may peace be up[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]n him) said to us: Bear witness to this.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
We also have "witnesses[FONT=&quot]" who attest that all of Joseph Smi[FONT=&quot]th's doings were genuine, and we also have "witnesses[FONT=&quot]" who attest to Jim Jo[FONT=&quot]nes clai[FONT=&quot]ms as well (and for that matter, [FONT=&quot]he did claim to be the son of god)[/FONT]. Those wi[FONT=&quot]tnesses we even hav[FONT=&quot]e on videotape, and you[FONT=&quot] don[FONT=&quot]'[FONT=&quot]t[/FONT] believe the[FONT=&quot]m[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not sure what you believed when you were a Christian. Because you see these stories as evil shows you either once seen them in Gods light and now cant because of a dis believing heart or just didn't understand in the first place.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

You're leaving out a th[FONT=&quot]ird option[FONT=&quot]... I could [FONT=&quot]have also discovered the stories are genuinely not true.

[FONT=&quot]That'[FONT=&quot]s pretty [FONT=&quot]telling about your own viewpoint. If I don't agree with you, it's either because there's something wrong with me, or I just didn't understand. You're not even open to considering the i[FONT=&quot]dea that you might be wrong yourself.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

By the sounds of how you described your belief in that you researched the bible and didn't mention anything about being born again I wonder if you didn't treat it all as a sort of club membership or learning a subject at school.

I never went to a "born again" church while [FONT=&quot]I was younger, my family w[FONT=&quot]ere[/FONT] certainly not evangelicals. [/FONT]

Apart from that, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at [FONT=&quot]here.[/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The bible is not just a historical record and some stories about conquests by earthly men. It has a divine meaning and is interlinked with other parts of the bible. These give it the proper context and meanings. The old testament is a hard book to understand and you need the Holy spirit to guide you in this. But you also need to understand the contexts or language and the meanings of these things.

[/FONT]

If you were god and you had to get the most important message out to all of humanity, why would you do it in a self-contradictory book that is open to any number of "possible contexts and meanings", and has been translated and mistranslated for thousands of years and is almost impossible for anyone to understand without help.

Does that sound like the work of a diving being to you? To quote George Carlin "If this is the work of a divine being, I am not impressed... this looks like the work of an office temp with a bad attitude".

[FONT=&quot]Maybe but it can be true as well.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Sure, i[FONT=&quot]t could be true. But for us to belie[FONT=&quot]ve it we requi[FONT=&quot]re eviden[FONT=&quot]ce. That's ultimately where the problem is.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The other is what also happened to me. I was a Christian and knew Gods love but was not strong at that time and gave into the ways of the world. I followed my desires and pleasures for money and relationships and things. This eventually almost diminished the flame of God. I was skeptical and believed in evolution. I seen the logic of it and questioned and challenged God and the bible.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But looking back the flame of God had not completely gone. That was part of my strengthening and God was making me stronger and more assured. I found God again as I didn't think I was worthy. But I can see it was faith that brought me back and not logical answers and evidence that would prove God or not. Its that faith even when it seems that it goes against what you think makes sense in this world. That is the key.[/FONT]

Well, I'm sorry you couldn't provide anything more substantive. Faith is never a path to truth, it's the excuse people give when they believe something without any evidence to justify their belief.

[FONT=&quot]Yes I was also young and questioned things. It is natural especially as a young person. Then you are not completely sure of yourself. Some can be easily swayed. The ways of the world and doubt can quickly fill that gap and before you know it you are moving away from God. Then its not as if one day you believed and the next you didn't. It is a long period of changing your beliefs and replacing them with man made thinking that destroys faith. Its normally from just giving into doing things your way and following your own desires in this world. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Sure, most people who eventually give up their [FONT=&quot]Christian[/FONT] beliefs go through a similar process. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who went from Chris[FONT=&quot]tian to A[FONT=&quot]theist in one "eureka" mo[FONT=&quot]m[/FONT]ent.[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Its hard because as a young person you have strong desires and wants. You can be going through the motions and not really committing or believing. Just like you belong to a club or organization than truly being saved. There are many that do the same. They live a worldly life while going through the ritual of going to church. They think they can do all the things that a non believer can do and by going to church it makes them saved. In fact the bible says this is one of the biggest reasons why many will not be saved because they didn't really know Jesus. But I am not saying this is you , I am just saying how this can happen in my experience and observations.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Fair enough, and I fully agree a lot of Christians do operate that way. However, that's no[FONT=&quot]t really relevant to atheism [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]in and of itself. [FONT=&quot]Most "non pra[FONT=&quot]cticing" [/FONT]Christians [/FONT](meaning the people who never go to church or who only go for special occasion[FONT=&quot]s) still believe there[/FONT]'s [FONT=&quot]a god, and go through their lives with[FONT=&quot] that belief.

[FONT=&quot]Typically someone becomes an[FONT=&quot] Atheist when they start taking their beliefs serou[FONT=&quot]sly and [FONT=&quot]research the religion, it's history and the claims made by that religion.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not saying that the only way is by being in a situation where you need to turn to God. But obviously if you dont get to a point where you see a need and really need and want God then you wont be truly giving in and giving yourself to God and will be holding back. Sometimes it takes a few goes to get to that point.

I guess some people have low thresholds where they see the need quickly or even have come to know God through the love of others or it being introduced to them early. But either way I believe you have to come to a realization of who you are as a sinner and who God is and what He is doing for you through Jesus. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Again, [FONT=&quot]for m[FONT=&quot]e to accept any of that, I'd need e[FONT=&quot]vidence that first off a god exists, then evidence that [FONT=&quot]I am indeed a sinner and need help from Jesus.

I c[FONT=&quot]an't beli[FONT=&quot]eve those things with[FONT=&quot]out a good reason [FONT=&quot]to do so.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes this is the dilemma of faith. Why should I give up things that I know make sense to me and give me comfort for something that makes no sense in this world. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]T[FONT=&quot]he answer is you [FONT=&quot]shouldn't[/FONT].[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

But that is what faith is and if we could prove God through the evidence then there wouldn't be faith and God would be here right now and it would probably be heaven on earth.

[FONT=&quot]And that's bad [FONT=&quot]how?[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

So in the mean time some how God has to get the message across from a spiritual realm. Something beyond this realm which we know and can see and touch. So its easy for us to go by touch and sight because thats what this reality demands.

Getting[FONT=&quot] a clear message out to everyone shouldn't be a problem for an all powerful god.[/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT]But just like someone will give up their life to help others in Gods will or even die for their beliefs they believe that this life is just a drop in the ocean and that there is something greater beyond this. [/quo[FONT=&quot]te]

[FONT=&quot]Which is one of [FONT=&quot]the mos[FONT=&quot]t serious dangers of faith. It causes [FONT=&quot]people to thro[FONT=&quot]w their only shot at li[FONT=&quot]fe away for nothing if they are wrong. That kind of belief is [FONT=&quot]what motivates suicide bombers and the guys that flew the p[FONT=&quot]lanes into the twi[FONT=&quot]n towers.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

But when you have two different dimensions to contend with its easier to fall back into this one than believe and live for one that is not apparent right away. But God has said we are not completely with any clues and knowledge. He says that Gods laws are written on our hearts so our conscience can remind us that there is something beyond man made truths.

[FONT=&quot]How do you know god said that?

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

All of creation carries the invisible qualities of God in it. When we look at the universe we see something more than just an accident that happen to produce such great design out of nothing.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Who sa[FONT=&quot]ys it was an accident that came out of nothing?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Its just that the white noise of this world and its constant questioning and pull away from God can block this out and take over. But like with me there was a flicker of a flame that was there and I found it and allowed it to burn even brighter than it ever was.

[/FONT]

That still doesn't mean your belief is actually true. You have no justifiable backing for your beliefs, you openly admitted you have no evidence and you base it upon faith. Why should anybody (including yourself) take that seriously?


p.s. I'll respond to your second post later, I have to get going to work!

 

[PsychoSarah]

How do you guys even manage these text walls?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How do you guys even manage these text walls?

Years of Mentat training.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

[FONT=&quot]

Whet[FONT=&quot]her you claim you're th[FONT=&quot]e son of god or a divine prophet[FONT=&quot] really doesn't mat[FONT=&quot]ter. Eit[FONT=&quot]her way you're making a wild claim that needs to be backed up.... cl[FONT=&quot]aiming you're the son of god is no more legitimate or worthy of belief tha[FONT=&quot]n [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]claiming[/FONT] you're [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]a divine prophet, or bigfoot.

[FONT=&quot]Not really, plenty of people think and claim they are a great preacher or prophet of God. Its still keeping yourself on the [FONT=&quot]mortal human level and its not such a great step. You can see how people could think like this, though it still means they maybe deluded or have a [FONT=&quot]grandsons[/FONT] view of themselves. Some may[FONT=&quot]be great preachers and have great results and its partly justified in some peoples views. But to say you are actually God or th[FONT=&quot]e Son of God is taking things a bit farther. You are [FONT=&quot]now giving yourself [FONT=&quot]supernatural[/FONT] status beyond humans. Usually this will mean you are very [FONT=&quot]deluded or have some sort of personality [FONT=&quot]disorder[FONT=&quot][/FONT]. I dont think you could sa[FONT=&quot]y that a person is stable and normal who thinks that.

The last couple I know of like Mason and David Koresh were [FONT=&quot]mentally[FONT=&quot][/FONT] unstable. It would b[FONT=&quot]e alone the lines of saying your big foot[FONT=&quot]. So theref[FONT=&quot]or [FONT=&quot]you have to say that this person is mad or very deluded. Their not just a good person with the wrong ideas they are unstable to think like that. [FONT=&quot]But I dont believe the way Jesus came [FONT=&quot]across[/FONT] that h[FONT=&quot]He was like that. He was stable in other ways and ver[FONT=&quot]y wise. Someone with [FONT=&quot]a personality disorder [FONT=&quot]like that [FONT=&quot]displays other traits such as they are anti social , full of self and have delusions about ot[FONT=&quot]her things and their relations[FONT=&quot]hips are disconnected.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[q[FONT=&quot]uote][/FONT]First off, Jesus (if he existed at all) can't be traced back to Adam since there never was one "first man" named Adam.[FONT=&quot][/quote]
[FONT=&quot]Well this is according to the bible [FONT=&quot]genealogy. Jesus [FONT=&quot]didn't[/FONT] have a blood father b[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]ut[/FONT] the li[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]ne[/FONT] that lead to Him is of holy men including Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and King David. So you can trace Jesus back to Adam.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3:23-38&version=ESV
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

However, even if there was a[FONT=&quot]n Adam and the whole genesis creation story [/FONT]was actually true, then every living person[FONT=&quot] on earth could also be traced back to Adam. So I don't really see how this makes Jesus special?

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]yes but they are talking about the particular men who God dealt with along the way. The ones who represented [FONT=&quot]covenants[/FONT] with God [FONT=&quot]ect like Abraham. Everyone can be tr[FONT=&quot]aced back but through other lines from their sibl[FONT=&quot]ings. But [FONT=&quot]remember[/FONT] this is more to do with a divi[FONT=&quot]ne meaning that a bloodline.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]You have a claim that [FONT=&quot]Jesus was the son of god. We have no witnesses or witness accounts of him doing anything.[/FONT] Furthermore, we do have people who clai[FONT=&quot]m to have witnessed Muhammad doing things like splitting t[FONT=&quot]he moon in two (which is where the moon symbol commonly associated with Islam comes from)

For example, here is a piece of "witness testimony": [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abdullah b. Mas'ud (who said): We were along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) at Mina, that moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. Allah's Messenger (may peace be up[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]n him) said to us: Bear witness to this.

[FONT=&quot]I have heard this but its the only thing that is attributed to [FONT=&quot]Mohammad[/FONT] as [FONT=&quot]supernatural. This would have been witnessed by the [FONT=&quot]entire[/FONT] world, well have of it anyw[FONT=&quot]ay. So its a mighty big claim and the only one.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]This kind of confirmation never happened on Muhammad’s behalf. In fact, Muhammad, the founder of Islam, actually believed Jesus was a prophet who performed miracles, including raising the dead. Muslims also believe Moses and Elijah performed miracles. However, in the Koran when unbelievers challenged Muhammad to perform a miracle, he refused. He merely said they should read a chapter in the Koran. (See Sura 2:118; 3:181–84; 4:153; 6:8,9,37 in the Koran.) And yet Muhammad himself said, “God hath certainly power to send down a sign” (Sura 6:37). He even said, “They [will] say: ‘Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?’” (Sura 6:37). Unlike Jesus, miracles were not a sign of Muhammad’s ministry. It wasn’t until 150 or 200 years after Muhammad’s death that his followers invented miracles and ascribed them to him.

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[/FONT]We also have "witnesses[FONT=&quot]" who attest that all of Joseph Smi[FONT=&quot]th's doings were genuine, and we also have "witnesses[FONT=&quot]" who attest to Jim Jo[FONT=&quot]nes clai[FONT=&quot]ms as well (and for that matter, [FONT=&quot]he did claim to be the son of god)[/FONT]. Those wi[FONT=&quot]tnesses we even hav[FONT=&quot]e on videotape, and you[FONT=&quot] don[FONT=&quot]'[FONT=&quot]t[/FONT] believe the[FONT=&quot]m[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT].

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Many people can make claims and claim great things that is true. So we have to assess their claims. But with Jesus as well He has said that we need to have faith. Proving yourself alone by [FONT=&quot]supernatural acts will not make someone automatically great. Satan could also do supernatural works. Jim Jones may have claimed many things as did Charles Mason and David Koresh. You have to look at who they were, what they actually did, what [FONT=&quot]was associated with them and what their intentions were.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus makes specific [FONT=&quot]claims about being the Son of God. He did mira[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]cles[/FONT] which people wrote about enough to make a book that has lasted 2000 plu[FONT=&quot]s years and changed history. People can affect others but so can evil people. Hitler claimed many things and affected many and went down in history. But we ca[FONT=&quot]n easily see why. But like I said it [FONT=&quot]isn't[/FONT] based on their feats alo[FONT=&quot]ne, in fact Jesus was always trying to minimize the miracles and His statu[FONT=&quot]s. He was looked upon a[FONT=&quot]s a trouble maker and even a [FONT=&quot]sorcerer[/FONT] by some[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT]You're leaving out a th[FONT=&quot]ird option[FONT=&quot]... I could [FONT=&quot]have also discovered the stories are genuinely not true.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]In what way. Just made up. I dont think they were like this. There were written by different people in different places and lines up mostly. They had small intimate knowled[FONT=&quot]ge of people, places objects, ceremonies that only someone of that time would know. [FONT=&quot]Some were written soon after the events [FONT=&quot]so there [FONT=&quot]wasn't[/FONT] time for myth to build up. There is also some non [FONT=&quot]biblical[FONT=&quot][/FONT] support which in[FONT=&quot]dicate[FONT=&quot]s the same. [FONT=&quot]Why would people who wrote about those things back then [FONT=&quot]just make up the miracles out of thin [FONT=&quot]air[/FONT]. [FONT=&quot]Things[/FONT] like this nor[FONT=&quot]mally stem for[FONT=&quot] a truth. Somet[FONT=&quot]imes they can be exaggerated but they [FONT=&quot]normally[FONT=&quot][/FONT] have some truth to them. Especially when they are claimed fro[FONT=&quot]m a variety of sources[FONT=&quot]. [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Historians[/FONT] agree that Jesus was cr[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]crucified[/FONT] for claiming to be the [FONT=&quot]Son of God. So this in itself is claiming a supernatural. You would think that [FONT=&quot]miracles and great works would go hand in hand.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

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That'[FONT=&quot]s pretty [FONT=&quot]telling about your own viewpoint. If I don't agree with you, it's either because there's something wrong with me, or I just didn't understand. You're not even open to considering the i[FONT=&quot]dea that you might be wrong yourself.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Not really because this is the common known view by Christians. Its something they come to on their own but in [FONT=&quot]agreement[/FONT] if they have come to know [FONT=&quot]God through Jesus and have the holy spirit working in their lives. They will automatically be in [FONT=&quot]agreement[/FONT] to within a fairly close [FONT=&quot]alinement[/FONT]. [FONT=&quot]Plus its common sense. [FONT=&quot]If your a Christian you dont go around saying God is evil[FONT=&quot] and does evil things. I know for a fact that many [FONT=&quot]non believers will take a worldly view of some of the sto[FONT=&quot]ries in the bible. There is a common view which can [FONT=&quot]easily[/FONT] be identified. They leave out a lot of the context and see it on the negative side[FONT=&quot] all the time. Its like [FONT=&quot]taking what appears to be a bad side of someone when you [FONT=&quot]didn't[/FONT] know them and then turning that into the be all and end all. It sho[FONT=&quot]ws a one sided view which is easily seen.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT]I never went to a "born again" church while [FONT=&quot]I was younger, my family w[FONT=&quot]ere[/FONT] certainly not evangelicals.

[FONT=&quot]I [FONT=&quot]think there is [FONT=&quot]a lot of jut go along with things because others do. There are Sunday [FONT=&quot]worshipers[/FONT] who do it as a trendy thing[FONT=&quot]. I think the US has a lot as its in their politics as well. Its to mixed 3with the world and you cant tell the difference. There will be true Christians in any denomination , non religious organizations, on the street, some that dont even belong to a church, in missionaries, in private organizations. There is no set idea for a [FONT=&quot]Christian[/FONT] in what they should be like with religion. They[FONT=&quot] believe what God has said and accepted the [FONT=&quot]free gift of Grace in Jesus Christ and that is the only similarity.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]

Apart from that, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at [FONT=&quot]here.

[FONT=&quot]Its not something you learn and then you get a pass and certificate. Its something that you need to come to at a point in your life where you [FONT=&quot]genuinely[/FONT] ask Jesus into your life[FONT=&quot]. Its letting go of self and allowing God to be in control. Thats hard for many and thats why it takes a lot[FONT=&quot] to let go. But if you are still holding [FONT=&quot]onto all your money and things and putting that first then you [FONT=&quot]haven't[/FONT] really let go and be willing to let God. I guess I am lucky in a way as I was down and out and had nothing left and God saved me[FONT=&quot]. But its about actions as well as words.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
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If you were god and you had to get the most important message out to all of humanity, why would you do it in a self-contradictory book that is open to any number of "possible contexts and meanings", and has been translated and mistranslated for thousands of years and is almost impossible for anyone to understand without help.

The message is simple. That is God gave His Son Jesus to save us and we can have forgiveness for sin and come to God through Jesus. His death on the cross bought us that salvation. You just have to believe that and accept that. Theres no need to analyze it or get proof of it because you cant and its based on faith. So your believing this and asking Jesus to help and come into your life with all your heart. Sometimes it takes a bit for some to get to a genuine point to really accept this into their life.

The bible give us many different ideas and teachings plus stories, parables, and other events that happened. But the main concern for anyone is the act of Jesus on the cross. What that represented. Someone who doesnt believe in God will see the bible as partly a good book of wise sayings and some hard to understand stories in the old testament that seem to paint God as bad. Some of the things about the spirit of God will be hard to comprehend as Paul is speaking to believers and trying to help them keep focused. Reaffirming the faith and spiritual grow in Jesus.

This will be better understood with the help of the holy spirit as the holy spirit comes form God and opens our eyes to the words and ways of God. We get God eyes, ears and brains so that we see what is beyond the printed words on the paper. The bible says this time and time again in so many different ways. Some listen but they dont hear, the intelligence of this world doesn't see the things of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

That is why I know that what I believe is true as the same things that Paul and the early church spoke about happening to them is happening to Christians today. we can relate to exactly what they are saying. Its not brain washing as we each individually come to this same thing like its a common language we have come to know in Jesus.

 

[stevevw]

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Does that sound like the work of a diving being to you? To quote George Carlin "If this is the work of a divine being, I am not impressed... this looks like the work of an office temp with a bad attitude".

[FONT=&quot]The Old Testament is a hard book to get your head around. I know that even because it is old that the meanings need to be understood let alone the proper language and its proper meanings to be applied. Then there are the divine meanings which you have to read in conjunction with even the New Testament sometimes but also other parts of the bible to get the true representations. If you see a battle you can think that this is bad with the death and fighting. But when you understand it in the context of that war with Gods people over a longer time and what it lead to you can see why and the importance in a greater context. But to just read that one event on its own you are not seeing the complete picture. This is what many do and they see things our of whack.
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[/FONT]Sure, i[FONT=&quot]t could be true. But for us to belie[FONT=&quot]ve it we requi[FONT=&quot]re eviden[FONT=&quot]ce. That's ultimately where the problem is.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&amp]If we had evidence then we wouldn't need faith. If everyone seen Gods greatness by the supernatural then this wouldn't be earth and we would be in heaven already. Even so some did see Gods greatness and still this didn't cause them to turn to God. There is a spiritual battle between good and evil and some will follow their own desires and pleasures no matter what. They don’t want to acknowledge a God who is King over their lives. Satan wants to challenge this and be god himself. So some want to also be gods of their own lives and reject anyone who will try to control them. This is the battle and nature of good and evil.
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Well, I'm sorry you couldn't provide anything more substantive. Faith is never a path to truth, it's the excuse people give when they believe something without any evidence to justify their belief.

[FONT=&quot]Well this is where I believe even though it is by faith that we are saved. There is a certain quality that goes with this. Maybe God knows that it’s not being intellectual or evidence because this still doesn't have the quality that is needed. Maybe it’s very simple and a child like quality. That’s why Jesus says we have to become like little children in our faith and trust. Maybe it’s because there are a lot of people out there that can’t know something through the evidence or intellect because they haven’t got that ability.

But there maybe something simple and liberating about a faith and trust in something that we just have to give into without all the evidence. After all what is the benefit of believing something when you have all the evidence. Love is also based on a faith and trust and maybe belief in God is primarily about love. But I also believe that it is not completely blind faith. As the bible says we have Gods laws written on our hears and all creation knows about God and His invisible qualities from His creations. It’s in the stars and universe, in a babies face, and the beauty of nature.
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[/FONT]Sure, most people who eventually give up their [FONT=&quot]Christian[/FONT] beliefs go through a similar process. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who went from Chris[FONT=&quot]tian to A[FONT=&quot]theist in one "eureka" mo[FONT=&quot]m[/FONT]ent.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&amp]The ways of this world can drown out your faith. By filling your life with things that need evidence or at least making this the only way you strangle faith. I went through the same. I could see the logic of some of the things people said and I based my life on these things as well. But still something was saying there’s more and it’s something beyond this. Don't judge everything but what you can see and touch. Still I had this voice calling me. At that point I had to take that step despite it being against what I thought because there was something there that seemed to be more than just my imagination telling me there is more.

And that’s when the door opens and you begin to understand. It’s like we have this something in us that looks beyond everything that we can see and think there has to be more it just is not enough. Life is too great and designed and beautiful to be all self made and random. There has to be something. I believe we all have this but we will drown it out with the ways and thinking of this world. Man made things where we want to be gods of our own little worlds and do everything without God. We will find substitutes and explanations to take God out of the picture.
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[/FONT]Fair enough and I fully agree a lot of Christians do operate that way. However, that's not really relevant to atheism in and of itself. Most "non practicing" Christians (meaning the people who never go to church or who only go for special occasions) still believe there's a god, and go through their lives with that belief.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Typically someone becomes an[FONT=&quot] Atheist when they start taking their beliefs [FONT=&quot]seriously and [FONT=&quot]research the religion, it's history and the claims made by that religion.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&amp]

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[/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=&amp]But that is not how faith works. That is mans skeptical reasoning coming in. The bible is not a history book and a science book. It is a book of Gods interactions and divine messages for man. The wars were not about wars. They were about Gods judgments to do with how sin had come into the world. It once had destroyed the whole world in the flood. God was battling with stopping the cancer of sin through different ways. He knew the bigger picture and where things would have led if he didn't intervene and Judge these things to stop it. Everything had a divine consequence.

It was all preparation and leading up to His Son coming and setting the right conditions. This was going to change the power and influence of sin forever. So it was all about the salvation of man not the destruction of man. Sin was something that was there and had to be dealt with. For whatever reason unbeknown to us there was evil and Satan was exploiting this. So the battle between good and evil had to be played out and it has come down to the act of Jesus.

That is part of the story so far that we know of and are living in. It has been 2000 years sinse Jesus performed that act. The world has now got a savior. The gospel has to be preached and soon the end will come. The final show down between Jesus and Satan. This will finally restore us to God and establish the [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Kingdom[/FONT][FONT=&amp] of [/FONT][FONT=&amp]God[/FONT][FONT=&amp]. Mankind has battle to establish peace on earth and we never will. It wont be until Christ returns as the Prince of peace.
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[/FONT]And that's bad [FONT=&quot]how?

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[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Its not bad but its also just not how it is. People seem to think God should stop earthquakes and change the course of the wind ECT. It’s just how things are at the moment. Maybe it has to be the way it is because that is how reality works at the moment. Maybe we need to go through this point because it makes the future what is should be. Changing things may affect realities. God still has to allow the reality of things because that is part of us and where we are at the moment. It will all be revealed in good time. The bible talks about this as now we see things in part and we can’t see the way God sees things. But its only partly revealed and soon when Jesus comes we will see things more completely just as God sees and knows us.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians [/FONT][FONT=&quot]13:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
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Getting[FONT=&quot] a clear message out to everyone shouldn't be a problem for an all powerful god.

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[/FONT][FONT=&amp]I think the message is simple and clear. Its just many complicate it and dont take it at its simple truth.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]John [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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But just like someone will give up their life to help others in Gods will or even die for their beliefs they believe that this life is just a drop in the ocean and that there is something greater beyond this. [FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Which is one of [FONT=&quot]the mos[FONT=&quot]t serious dangers of faith. It causes [FONT=&quot]people to thro[FONT=&quot]w their only shot at li[FONT=&quot]fe away for nothing if they are wrong. That kind of belief is [FONT=&quot]what motivates suicide bombers and the guys that flew the p[FONT=&quot]lanes into the twi[FONT=&quot]n towers.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&amp]No that is man injecting their own hatred into things. Look at what they are doing and it is against their own beliefs. The IRA blow up kids and if you look at what they say and do you can identify the hate and anger. The motives that are man made. You still have to see that it is about what God represents. Jesus [FONT=&quot]doesn't[/FONT] say anywhere to kill others. In fact He says to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. He says love others as you love yourself. He teaches with the parables like the good Samaritan.

So it is clear and there is not ambiguity at all. Anyone who goes against this is a liar. It is the same for any religion. But with some false religions they are based on man made beliefs and they are not from God so they may promote wrong things. But this is also easily [FONT=&quot]identified[/FONT]. But you have to remember that man has been doing these crazy bad things all the time and it hasn't always been about religion. The Japanese did this in WW2 with the Kamikaze planes.

If you look at the thousands of Christians who have given up their lives, time and ambitions to follow God. They are out there in the background working for good. They are not destroying but saving. They are not blindly going along thinking I have to do this and there is no reward until I die and thats when I will find out. They are reaping the rewards now. They have the confirmation now and it is revealed to them in their lives daily. That is why they persist and seem happy despite sometimes having to give up a lot.

But think about all those who cant have good lives now for one reason or another. They may have been born into a life of misery or have diseases or disabilities they have to live with. They see others having good lives with opportunities. There are millions who are less fortunate and have unhappy existences. What is their life if this is all there is. They have 50 to 70 years of pain and misery and thats it. They would be hoping there is something else because the life they had in this one was a bummer. Its easy to be philosophical about making the most of this short existence if you are able to do so.
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That still doesn't mean your belief is actually true. You have no justifiable backing for your beliefs, you openly admitted you have no evidence and you base it upon faith. Why should anybody (including yourself) take that seriously?

[FONT=&amp]Well how else could it happen if it didn't happen by the methods that naturalistic events happen. If not then are you saying it had some planning and organization about it. Like anything naturalistic there isn't any planning it just happens as a course of randomness. An explosion will blow everything all over the place. There is not guarantee that things will fall into place and in any order. Let alone align many constants into their perfect parameters to produce this perfect condition for life. There could have been many outcomes that produced chaos and non life.

The same for life itself. There had to be many things in the right place at the right time and working together to produce some of the conditions for life to come from non life and then evolve into more complex life that wasn't there before hand. The odds for these things have been calculated at phenomenal levels by scientists themselves.[/FONT]

p.s. I'll respond to your second post later, I have to get going to work!

No worries.