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So you want to know why fossilization is a lie?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by look, Apr 12, 2003.

  1. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    It sounds like you have confused the color of fossils out of tar pits with petrified fossils. Sure, some petrified fossils will look a little darker, depending in the type of substance it was fossilized in.
     
  2. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    That's a good question. Not the one you raised, but the question of whether DNA survives the fossilization process. The fossilization process involves the swapping out of organic molecules for whatever the minerials are in the area.

    What probably happened is the DNA was not intact or the science of reading DNA was not availible for identification purposes. I don't think the law would allow it to be on display if the remains could be identified, do you?

    The point all of you seem to be missing is fossilization can occur much more rapidly than the generally accepted millions and millions of years.
     
  3. euphoric

    euphoric He hates these cans!!

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    Which scientists already knew.  They also know under what conditions such fossilization occurs.  What's your point in all this?  Surely you're not going to try to suggest that because fossilization can occur rapidly under certain conditions that all fossils are really recent.  Because that would be ridiculous.

    By the way, you've still provided no data on this find.  No lab results to ensure that it is in fact fossilized, nothing.  Where's the data?

    -brett
     
  4. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    [align=center]HERE TODAY, STONE TOMORROW. CHAPTER 1[/ALIGN]

    Questions, Questions . . .

    What is a fossil?

    Does it really take millions of years to make a fossil?

    How fast can fossils form?

    When did fossils form?

    Are fossils forming today?

    THE FLOOD of Noah as described in Genesis chapters 6 through 9 is responsible for virtually all the geologic features and geologic processes on earth, past and present (see Note 1). While there are many facts of geology pointing to this conclusion, it is wise to remember that Scripture itself goes to redundant lengths to emphasize again and again the catastrophic death and destruction wrought by the Flood.

    On the first day of the Flood, as the historical record states in Genesis 7:11, "were all the fountains of the great deep broken up" -- the surface of the earth was destroyed -- "and the windows of heaven were opened" -- there was cataclysmic rainfall. Genesis 7:17-24 records in chilling monotony the death of absolutely every air-breathing creature on earth in the Flood. To accomplish such complete and global death, the Flood itself was clearly global and terrible.

    With the historical record in Scripture so emphatically demanding that we acknowledge the Flood as a global disaster of unparalleled destruction, how is it possible for anyone to claim the Flood was only local and tranquil? There are in fact two arguments put forward which seem at first to make a terrible global Flood an impossible myth. One argument is the claim that the earth is very old.

    With a very old earth all geologic features hypothetically could be shaped very slowly by gentle processes over eons of time, and a sudden cataclysmic Flood is not necessary to explain geology. However, the genuine data of science -- as opposed to evolutionary wishful thinking -- invalidate the alleged radiometric "proofs" that the earth is very old, and in fact the evidence shows it is relatively young (see Note 2).

    There is another argument people sometimes use to show that upheavals in the cataclysmic Flood of Noah cannot have been responsible for geology. It is the claim that fossils must require a long, long time to form. Fossils are the remains of buried organisms that have been mineralized or petrified. As minerals replace the substances in a once-living organism, a rock begins to take shape having the actual form of the buried remains. A fossil is therefore a special kind of rock -- a rock having the overall shape or appearance of something that lived in the past, such as dinosaur bones or petrified wood. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil1.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 2[/align]

    FOSSILS, THE "BOOK OF DEATH"

    Since fossils come from once-living things, they are actually a record of death. But if fossils formed slowly over eons of time, a cataclysmic Flood is ruled out, since a cataclysmic global Flood that leaves no traces of death is obviously absurd and unreal. Either fossils form very slowly and there was no cataclysmic Flood as the Bible describes, or there was a horrific Flood that killed and buried trillions of living things which then fossilized (see Note 3).

    We are now going to examine some of the dramatic evidences showing that fossilization was a very rapid process. As we will see, fossils themselves provide powerful extrabiblical evidence that the Flood was just as lethal as Scripture claims.

    A basic fact of fossilization is that the entire process of mineralization must occur before the organism can decay (see Note 4). In other words, the time for fossilization must be shorter than the decay time. Most biologic materials decay quickly. Decay can start within a few hours or less, and rarely takes more than a few weeks. Even bones suffer complete dissolution in a few years. In this fact alone there is not a hope for very slow fossil formation taking millions or even thousands of years -- decay would consume the specimen before it was buried!

    As a guide to the speed of fossilization, the approximate time for decay to commence is a good indicator of how fast the preservation must have been. Since all decay is fairly rapid, all fossils formed rapidly. If fossilization had not been rapid, no fossils would exist! This basic fact absolutely excludes any possibility of slow fossil formation over eons of time, and the case for rapid fossil formation is conclusively proved. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil2.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 3[/ALIGN]

    Despite the fact that we have now proved our case for rapid fossilization, however, we will examine five lines of evidence further emphasizing the catastrophic and virtually unique conditions associated with almost every fossil.

    The first evidence we will consider is the catastrophic circumstances of fossilization. Virtually all fossils, whether they formed in the past or are in that small number of fossils forming today, have resulted from catastrophic or at least unusual conditions. Let us first consider the buffalo, once very common in the United States. Fossil formation is very rare today (although it does occur occasionally). To emphasize how rare fossilization is today, we consider the millions of buffalo killed in the U.S. in the 1880s. Not one left a fossil trace. In fact, some sixty million buffalo were killed, and by the early 1900s only a few thousand remained. Yet not one fossil was formed from all these millions of creatures.

    Another illustration also shows the rarity of fossilization under ordinary circumstances. It is the millions of Israelites that died in the wilderness in Old Testament times, yet none of them was preserved in fossil form. Fossil formation requires unusual conditions unlike those normally occurring today. Virtually all fossils, it seems, formed in past catastrophes; and the few fossils forming today also occur under abnormal conditions. Death under normal conditions, such as the slaughter of buffalo in the American West in the 1800s, leaves no fossils.

    In a case of fairly recent fossilization, a bat became encased in a stalactite several decades ago (probably while it was hibernating) in the Carlsbad Caverns in the western United States. Fossilization such as this can occasionally happen today if chemical-rich water is available to impregnate the specimen, as in caves. But this process always occurs rapidly. If the present is indeed the key to the past, then past fossil formation must have been rapid also. Any theory claiming that fossilization takes thousands or millions of years must ignore this and much other evidence showing that fossilization does occur very rapidly.

    As another example of recent fossil formation, a fossil felt hat was found in a cave in Tasmania, an Australian state. It was left in a mine there and had been fossilized in limestone in only fifty years or so. There was also a another fossilized hat found about 1900 in a village in New Zealand. It was buried by a volcanic eruption in June, 1886, and the fossilized remnant was recovered in less that 20 years. Such evidence indicates that fossilization occurs with great rapidity.

    Canada provides another instance of how fast fossilization really is. In 1973 some tree roots were fossilized by a power line fall near Grand Prairie, Alberta -- high voltage accomplished the fossilization that, to evolutionary philosophy, should require millions of years. The presence of a chemical-rich solution (as in caves) is not the only condition favoring or even sufficient for fossilization. The specimen must also be preserved quickly, otherwise it will rot. These particular fossilized roots were fossilized in only a few minutes. To be sure, this was an unusual event, but it emphasizes again the extreme speed of fossilization. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil3.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 4[/align]

    THE VOLCANIC CITY

    A famous historical case of fossilization involves the victims at Pompeii, a Roman city buried by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. People were buried by volcanic ash as they ran for their lives, then rainwater permeated the ash, dissolving minerals that favored fossilization. Men got buried with their money bags as they tried to run away from Pompeii, and women and children were buried in their beds. Eventually the bodies decayed and the hardened volcanic ash preserved the shapes of the victims' bodies.

    What little fossilization has occurred in fairly recent centuries is almost totally due to cataclysmic burial in volcanic dust, ash and mud like the catastrophe at Pompeii. The fossils at Pompeii illustrate again that real fossilization is quite rapid and is usually cataclysmic.

    The victims at Pompeii are not the only cases of once-living forms that were overtaken in cataclysms. Many sites worldwide show the ability of volcanic eruptions to leave fossilized victims. In the midwestern United States are massive fossil "graveyards" spanning thousands of square miles. The animals found in these geological "tombs" include rhinoceroses, horses, and camels all mangled together. The volcanic ash covering these "graveyards" is over 10 feet thick in places, and one eruption occurring centuries ago in Nebraska may have been 100 times larger than the horrific eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980.

    As a final example of the cataclysm of fossilization, let us consider the Petrified Forest in Arizona. Trees of more than 6 feet in diameter were snapped like toothpicks by extremely cataclysmic flows of mud and buried in sediments. Certainly they were not calmly and gradually buried to have been completely broken up as they are today. We see that fossilization, whether it occurred in the past or whether it occurs today, requires unusual conditions -- chemical-rich, mineral-rich, rapidly acting and cataclysmic conditions. These conditions could be a description of the global Flood of Noah as described in Scripture. Most fossilization was a past event -- few fossils form today, and virtually all of those form in volcanic eruptions -- and most fossilization is directly connected with the Flood itself. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil4.html
     
  5. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    [align=center]CHAPTER 5[/align]

    THE WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE

    Other evidences show that fossilization is not a normal process. We now consider the fact that many fossil organisms have been buried under immense weights of sediments. The Flood like no other event in history provided massive amounts of chemical-rich water and loads of sediment causing catastrophic burial. We can understand the impact of burial under tons of sediment by considering large animals such as fossil sharks squeezed to millimetric thinness. A shark unearthed in Ohio was compressed to only one quarter of an inch, and it was partly carbonized -- the first step in turning to coal. Such specimens are testimony to the literally crushing weight of the great masses of sediments moved about the earth during the Flood.

    Many additional examples show the nearly instantaneous speed of burial and subsequent fossilization in the Flood. Bivalves, like clams and oysters, and various mollusks, normally after death relax the constrictor muscle that holds the two portions of the bivalve shell together, and the two halves of the shell come apart. But fossil bivalves have been found with closed shells. Such creatures must have been buried quickly under immense weights of sediments while still alive. The shells were clamped shut by the sediments suddenly encasing them (see Note 5).

    Other instances give the same testimony. A fairly well-known example is a human skeleton called the "Lady of Guadeloupe." This skeleton is articulated -- the bones are found lying next to each other as they would have been in life. This particular skeleton was found in Miocene limestone in about 1812 in the Caribbean island of Guadeloupe. As with the victims at Pompeii, this person was overtaken in a sudden catastrophe. In fact, the skeleton is in a reclining position as if the person were trying to escape from a great load, or run from some disaster. Evidently the person was felled and swept along by loads of debris, even while trying to escape the ancient catastrophe, possibly the very Flood itself (see Note 6).

    There are other evidences of the crushing weight of sediment that often enshrouded living creatures and plants in the Flood. Underground layers of coal, which are sometimes hundreds of feet thick, are the product of vast mats of vegetation being compressed and compacted by tons of overlying sediments in the Flood. There are "radioactive halos" in coal that can be seen under a microscope magnified about 250 times (see Note 7).

    These small discolorations are produced by radioactive grains (of elements like polonium-210) that produce rings of coloration which are centered on the radioactive grains. The rings ordinarily would be spherical, but sometimes they were squeezed during the process of coal formation. As the vegetation was compacted to form coal, the halos were also flattened out, then later after compaction was complete the normal circular rings of discoloration formed around the flattened portion. Polonium-210 has a very short half-life of only a few minutes, and for the flattened halos to be surrounded by the normal circular rings, the formation time for the coal must have been even faster.

    There are still other signs of the massive tonnage dumped on top of organisms to be fossilized. There is a hammer found in Ordovician sandstone near Fort Worth, Texas. The handle was partly carbonized, that is, partly turned to coal, due to the weight of overlying sediments. In fact the speed of coal formation actually seems to depend on the mass of overburden covering the coal, and not on time. Had the sediments overlying this hammer been somewhat thicker, perhaps the hammer handle would have been totally turned to coal, rather than being partially carbonized. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil5.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 6[/ALIGN]

    FOSSIL "SNAPSHOTS"

    There are other indicators of the speed of fossilization, fossil fish eating other fossil fish. Many of these are found in the Green River Formation in Wyoming. Burial of these fish was almost instantaneous. It was so quick it caught the larger fish in the act of eating smaller ones, testimony to the tons of sediments suddenly dumped on living things during the Flood catastrophe. In fact carnivorous fish like these are fairly common in the fossil record.

    Carnivorous fish are not the only fossil "snapshots." Another nearly instantaneous burial involves a dinosaur-like creature, the ichthyosaur, and its babies preserved in the act of feeding (or having just been born). The act of burial and preservation exceeded the speed of either birth or feeding time. There are still other examples showing the same speed for fossilization. Many insects are found preserved in amber, the most famous specimens being those found in Europe near the Baltic Sea. In one specimen, an ant is working on the larva of another insect which it is using for food, an act requiring only a few seconds.

    Other famous fossil "snapshots" are the so-called "polystrate" trees. Polystrate trees are fossil tree trunks extending through many layers (or "strata") of rock. Some of these are upwards of twenty feet tall, and evolutionary philosophy claims millions of years for all the strata surrounding them to form. Typically found in coal seams worldwide, they are actually evidence of the great thickness of rapidly-laid Flood sediments. Had the trees been buried and fossilized only slowly, the uppermost strata would have been laid after the tree had rotted and the upper parts of the tree no longer existed. If buried slowly, the polystrate trees could not exist as we see them today.

    Animal burrows and nests are also common in the fossil record. Left to ordinary processes, burrows such as these would fill in within a few years. Clearly, great loads of overburden were dumped on top of these, sealing them off from further filling. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil6.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 7[/ALIGN]

    FOOTPRINTS IN STONE

    We have now seen that fossils -- even those forming today -- do not form under normal conditions, but under unusual and catastrophic conditions, and we have seen that many fossils were buried under immense loads of sediment, under great masses of debris that in many cases crushed the life out of them. A third evidence that fossilization was rapid is the preservation of imprints in mud. Mud prints normally do not last. If formed during a rain storm today they are rapidly washed away, yet mud prints of various sorts are very common in fossil-bearing rocks all over the world.

    Perhaps the most publicized mudprints are the Paluxy River footprints near Fort Worth, Texas. Footprints like this would decay within minutes in any rainstorm today. Regardless of the identity of the Paluxy prints, they show the speed of burial and preservation. Any theory that claims fossils take thousands or millions of years to form must account for mudprints such as these. Clearly these and millions of other sites worldwide were suddenly deluged and buried by tons of sediment before they could wash away. Once protected by sedimentary overburden, the mud containing the prints hardened, leaving the imprints we find today.

    Paluxy footprints have been sawn apart and studied in cross-section. The cross-section of one such fossil footprint (possibly made by a sabre-toothed tiger) shows layers or "laminae" of mud that were compressed by the animal stepping in soft mud. The laminae are bent or curved, showing that the footprint was truly made in soft mud which was giving under the animal's weight. This shows that the footprint is genuine and not a carving. A carving would not show the curvature of the laminae caused by weight pressing down on fresh, soft mud.

    Another notable case of a fossil print is the shoeprint found in Utah in 1968. It again illustrates the fact that fossilization was very, very rapid, so rapid that the mudprint was not destroyed before the process of burial and preservation was set into motion. Amazingly this artifact shows that the person wearing the shoe stepped on some trilobites -- yet evolutionary philosophy claims that trilobites supposedly lived 600 million years before man! Man and trilobites actually lived at the same time! Fossils not only formed rapidly, there were no geologic ages to incorporate slow fossil formation at all (see Note 8).

    Ripple marks are another very common phenomenon in fossil-bearing deposits, yet ripple marks, like any other kind of mud-formed print, would normally wash away unless rapidly buried and preserved. Many cases have been found all over the world, especially in sandstone formations, yet the decay time for ripple marks is only minutes, showing that burial and preservation were even more rapid than this.

    There are fossilized worm tracks in Cambrian sandstone, and as the case with ripple marks, any track made by a worm would soon degrade. Yet these too are preserved, showing a very short time for burial and the onset of preservation. Certainly raindrop prints would be expected to decay more rapidly than any other kind of print, yet even these most delicate of imprints are found in fossil- bearing layers. Rainprints have been found, for example, in the Netherlands and Belgium. Normally these prints decay in seconds, but the cataclysmic burial and preservation of these in the Flood was even more rapid. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil7.html
     
  6. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    [align=center]CHAPTER 8[/ALIGN]

    SNAILS, EGGS, AND DINOSAURS

    We have now considered the catastrophic circumstances of fossilization, the massive tons of sediments entombing the fossilized victims, and the existence of imprints in mud. A fourth evidence of the rapidity of fossilization resides in the preservation of extremely delicate things. Delicate life forms normally decay quickly either by putrefication or by simple physical destruction, yet tremendous numbers of these have been found. One case in point is fossil casts of creatures like snails. A snail has a very soft body, rapidly decayable, but burial and preservation was faster than the decay time.

    Eggs normally decay and putrefy quickly, or predators devour them for their rich nutrients, yet fossilized eggs have been found in different parts of the world. The most famous case is the dinosaur eggs from the Gobi desert found in the 1920s (see Note 9). Such eggs sometimes contain unborn babies fossilized in all of their delicate detail, indicating incredibly quick burial and preservation, with very rapid sealing-off from bacteria that normally cause rotting and putrefication. Other notable nests of dinosaur eggs have been found in Wyoming. Dinosaur dung, like eggs, would also be expected to degrade quickly under normal conditions, yet fossilized dung (technically called "coprolite") has been preserved in many places.

    Even dinosaur skin has sometimes been preserved. Some skin has been found with its ligaments, and not completely fossilized. It would be expected to decay quickly, yet its burial and preservation were even more rapid. By studying the intricate patterns still visible on such specimens, much has been learned about dinosaurs, but this would have been impossible had fossilization not been rapid.

    Flower blossoms are extremely tender and delicate things, yet even they have been preserved in a few cases. Some of the finest specimens have been found in Sweden. Very delicate organs such as eyes have also been preserved. Amazingly, optical studies have been made of fossil trilobite eyes, but normally the delicate structures in such eyes would decay in hours if not even more rapidly buried and preserved. Insect fossils contain imprints of soft parts which would have degraded quickly unless they had been even more rapidly buried and preserved. The soft parts of many insects including roaches, spiders, and centipedes were all preserved as fossil imprints.

    We have already considered insects that were preserved in amber. These insects often were not even fossilized, but were preserved in such perfect form that even the cellular structure of such creatures has been studied microscopically. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil8.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 9[/align]

    THE FOSSIL "MICRO-WORLD"

    This brings us to our last evidence of rapid fossilization -- the existence of microscopic details. Normally an organism begins to degrade within seconds after its death, yet even the chromosomal and genetic designs of some organisms have been preserved and studied under the microscope.

    Likewise, petrified wood -- mentioned above -- was often preserved so rapidly that even the structure of the individual cells is discernable. The cell structure of petrified wood from the Petrified National Forest in Arizona has been studied microscopically. It has been said of such specimens that they reveal intricate cellular detail, and that such detail would require the rapid infiltration of minerals (see Note 10). In other words, the fossilization was preceded by quick infiltration of chemical-rich water into the living specimen, so that preservation was rapid and thorough all the way down to the microscopic level.

    It is clear that the actual physical evidence shows fossilization is not a slow process requiring eons of time. The very existence of fossils, plus the catastrophes surrounding their formation, their burial under tons of sediments, the quick preservation exceeding the decay time of even the most delicate mud prints, body parts, and microscopic details -- all these show that fossils formed rapidly under abnormally extreme conditions, and not slowly under normal conditions.

    The real data of paleontology are not compatible with the interminable geologic ages of evolutionary philosophy. They are compatible only with the cataclysmic Flood of Noah as described in Scripture. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil9.html

    [align=center]CHAPTER 10[/align]

    Conclusions . . . Did You Know? . . .

    A fossil must form faster than an organism can decay.

    Many features preserved as fossils (single cells, DNA fragments, etc.) could have decayed in days or even hours if they had not been fossilized first.

    Fossils form rapidly, in weeks, days, possibly hours.

    Virtually all fossils formed in the past.

    Almost no fossils are forming today.

    Fossils apparently never form under ordinary conditions. Normally, dead plants and animals rot.

    Even today, the few fossils forming are formed rapidly, under violent conditions, and in mineral- rich solutions.

    These conditions were worldwide during the Flood.

    Most fossils worldwide formed suddenly in a global, watery cataclysm (the Flood).

    Since fossils formed rapidly, so did the rocks they are in.

    Fossils are a record of death, not life.

    Page Content by Jonathan F. Henry, Ph.D., 1994 http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossil10.html

    [align=center]FOOTNOTES[/align]

    1. This claim is discussed in Discovery Series monograph #7, "Noah's Flood, A Current Event." See also The World That Perished by John C. Whitcomb (Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1973).

    2. Discovery Series monograph #5, "How About a Date?," discusses chronology. See also It's a Young World After All by Paul D. Ackerman (Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1986).

    3. Even evolutionists, when examining actual fossil deposits (as opposed to philosophizing about fossil formation) conclude that fossils formed in floods of water:

    "Almost all fossils were buried as sediments, and in most instances the sediments were laid down in water." -- Fossils and the History of Life by George Gaylord Simpson (New York, Scientific American Library, 1983, page 56.

    "Many strata must have been deposited very rapidly. . . . They were deposited by hydrodynamic events, such as floods, that had durations ranging from a few seconds to several hours." -- Origin of Sedimentary Rocks by Harvey Blatt and others (Englewood Cliffs, NJ, Prentice-Hall, 1972), page 115.

    "Most of the trees [in the Petrified National Forest] appear to have been uprooted, transported, tumbled, and swirled about by raging streams. . . . To account for so much wood being washed out by floods, transported, dumped, and then buried, we have to visualize large rivers that overspread flood plains and deltas during times of high water." -- Geology of National Parks by Ann G. Harris and Esther Tuttle (Dubuque, IA, Kendall/Hunt Publishing Company, 1990), page 104.

    "Chatterjee suggests that the animals perished when a flash flood rushed through the countryside. Now the area is parched and rocky, but in those days, water was abundant and vegetation lush. When the flood gushed past, the creatures in its path were buried rapidly and their bones preserved." -- "Dinosaur Ancestors Unearthed in Texas" (Science News, Volume 124, December 3, 1983), page 357.

    "The quarry area is a dinosaur graveyard, not a place where they died. A majority of the remains probably floated down an eastward flowing river until they were stranded on a shallow sandbar. Some of them, such as the stegosaurs, may have come from far-away dryland areas to the west. Perhaps they drowned trying to ford a tributary stream or were washed away during floods." -- The Dinosaur Quarry by John M. Good and others (Washington, DC, National Park Service, 1958), page 20.

    "Johanson's 1975 pass through Nairobi [Kenya] was particularly rewarding . . . Never before had such a collection of early hominid fossils been discovered: more than 300 fossil fragments -- parts of jaws, crania, hands, feet and limbs -- and also apparently deposited within a short period of time. In fact, Taieb even considered that the thirteen individuals in the assemblage might have died at the same time, perhaps the victims of a flash flood." -- Bones of Contention by Roger Lewin (New York, Simon and Schuster, 1987), page 274.

    For more details on the nature of fossils, see the paper "Fossils and the Flood" by J.F. Henry (Chattanooga, TN, Center for Creation Concepts, 1984).

    4. Evolutionists confronted with real fossils have recognized the fact that they must form rapidly:

    "To become fossilized a plant or animal must usually have hard parts, such as bone, shell or wood. It must be buried quickly to prevent decay and must be undisturbed throughout the long process." - - Fossils by F.H.T. Rhodes and others (New York, Golden Press, 1962), page 10.

    "Rapid burial, then, is an obvious prerequisite for preservation . . ." -- Dinosaurs, Spitfires, and Sea Dragons by Christopher McGowan (Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1991), page 26.

    "The organism should be buried rapidly, to prevent destruction by other organisms or by natural events, such as storms. . . . The two conditions necessary for good fossil formation are rapid burial and the possession of hard parts." -- General Science (Teacher's Edition) by Carolyn Sheets Brockway and others (Newton, MA, Allyn and Bacon, 1985), pages 280, 281.

    "Quick burial and the possession of a mineralized skeleton is usually required." -- Contemporary Physical Geology by Harold L. Levin (Philadelphia, Saunders College Publishing, 1986), page 142.

    In contrast to these assessments of real observations, evolutionists sometimes dogmatize about the terribly slow pace of fossilization: "Fossilization is a process that takes millions of years." -- Economic Botany by B.B. Simpson and M. Conner-Ogorzaly (New York, McGraw-Hill, 1986), page 10. See the paper "Uniformism and Catastrophism" by J.F. Henry (Chattanooga, TN, Center for Creation Concepts, 1984) for more evidence of extreme catastrophism in the fossil record.

    5. See pages 36-37 in Origin by Design by Harold G. Coffin (Washington, DC, Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1983). Coffin has done original research on this and other topics which he discusses in this book.

    6. See pages 215-218, In the Minds of Men by Ian T. Taylor (Toronto, TFE Publishing, 1987).

    7. The classic work on radioactive halos is Creation's Tiny Mystery by Robert V. Gentry (Knoxville, TN, Earth Science Associates, 1986).

    8. See "Discovery of Trilobite Fossils in Shod Footprint of Human in `Trilobite Beds' - A Cambrian Formation, Antelope Springs, Utah" by William Meister (Creation Research Society Quarterly, Volume 5, December 1968), page 98.

    9. Dinosaur hunter Edwin Colbert has written of this discovery and others in The Great Dinosaur Hunters and Their Discoveries (New York, Dover Publications, 1984).

    10. For example, of a certain fossil wood specimen it is stated that it "reveals intricate cellular detail . . . requires rapid infiltration." See Fossils and the History of Life cited in Note 3 above, page 21. http://www.lewisdt.com/research/fossilnotes.html
     
  7. Pete Harcoff

    Pete Harcoff PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

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    look, why not just post a link to the article, perhaps quoting the relevant sections. Posting full articles (unless you are the author) is in poor debate form.
     
  8. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

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    This is one of the reasons I doubt it is even human bone.

    No this is the point you seem to be missing...

    No scientist ever said fossilization ever took millions and millions of years, only creationists. Fossilization rates vary depending on conditions, some occurring in less than a year, some taking thousands of years.

    Once fossilized they can remain intact for millions of years, but that does not mean that the process took that long.

    Please try reading up on a subject from real textbooks before just regurgitating someone else’s mistakes and making yourself and Christianity look foolish...
     
  9. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    814
    +9
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Constitution
    So you can read it all in this thread. Some people won't click on the articles because they already have their minds made up. That's why. I'm simply making a point and I want it explained by scientists who know what they are talking about. I don't have the knowledge to debate it all on my own. That's why I spend alot of time doing the research to find this stuff to show that it is very plausible that Noah's flood did indeed happen.

    Judging from your post time, I'll bet not even you read all of it. Did you? :)
     
  10. Pete Harcoff

    Pete Harcoff PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

    +65
    Other Religion
    But wholesale posting of articles doesn't suggest that you understand the material. All that suggests is that you are capable of working the copy-and-paste function on your computer.

    On the other hand, formulating an argument using quotes from articles to support your position (with links back the original article so references can be checked) would better demonstrate that you know the material being discussed and are prepared to properly debate it.

    No, I didn't read it. And I'm not going to, since I don't have time to wade through a full article trying to pick out the points that would be relevant to your argument. That's your job, not mine.
     
  11. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single

    Judging by the fact you posted this article this way I bet that you didn't know that it is illegal to do so and could get this board shut down for copyright infringement.

    I happen to like this board and would not like to see Erwin sued so please be more careful.
     
  12. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +177
    Taoist
    For fun, I think im going to go through the article.

    However, I agree, by posting the article, without posting where it came from, I believe thats plagerizing. And you may want to check to see if the article can be reproduced, or the posting of it is also illegal.
     
  13. Pete Harcoff

    Pete Harcoff PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

    +65
    Other Religion
    Technically plagiarism is taking credit for someone else's work. look didn't do that, so this isn't quite plagiarism.

    Unless explicit permission is given, copyrights are assumed. In other words, no, you can't just go reposting any article you find off the internet.
     
  14. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    814
    +9
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Constitution
    If you had went to the links, you would have seen this;

    published @ lewisdt.com, 2002 courtesy of the Center for Creation Concepts
    Duplication limited to free or at cost distribution,
    with the acknowledgement that such duplication
    is by courtesy of the Center for Creation Concepts
    :D

    Did you really think I would be so stupid to jeopardize this forum? Thanks a lot!
     
  15. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single

    By not posting this permission with the article you were doing just that, copyright law is not to be messed with.
     
  16. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    814
    +9
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Constitution
    why don't you report me if I have commited such a heinous crime? :rolleyes:
     
  17. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single

    As I said, I do not want this board shut down either...

    I have helped run several sci-fi and Anime conventions so I know a little bit about copyright law, it is a serious concern and one infringement can get a con shut down and the board of directors sued silly. I was trying to help correct a mistake you made by posting that without copyright acknowledgement, you can choose to learn from this or not, that is up to you.
     
  18. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +177
    Taoist
    Ok, getting to the article.

    Chap 1

    “THE FLOOD of Noah as described in Genesis chapters 6 through 9 is responsible for virtually all the geologic features and geologic processes on earth, past and present (see Note 1). While there are many facts of geology pointing to this conclusion...”

    Really? Can you point us to some of these facts? The article that they refer to is over 30 years old. If these facts have held up for 30 years, i’m sure it should be easy to find them.

    “there was cataclysmic rainfall. Genesis 7:17-24 records in chilling monotony the death of absolutely every air-breathing creature on earth in the Flood.”

    Look, didn’t you argue with me that the bible didn’t say that whales were killed (even though it says that everything that was living was killed)?

    “However, the genuine data of science -- as opposed to evolutionary wishful thinking -- invalidate the alleged radiometric "proofs" that the earth is very old, and in fact the evidence shows it is relatively young.”

    Again, it would be nice if they actually listed this data in the article. The article they refer to is a 17 year old article on radiometric dating.
    Can you give us this evidence. Since after all if it is genuine data, it should be easy to come up with.

    Chap 2

    ”Either fossils form very slowly and there was no cataclysmic Flood as the Bible describes, or there was a horrific Flood that killed and buried trillions of living things which then fossilized (see Note 3).”

    Of course, they left out a third, or more, possibilities. Since science knows that fossils are rare and don’t normally form slowly, then we can rule out the first idea. However that doesn’t mean that there must have been a global flood. The fossilized animals could have died in many different ways and then their bodies were covered by sediment or other similar event. But we cant Assume that it Must have been a global flood.

    The rest of Chap 2 talks about things that science pretty much already knows. All the while it acts as if science is saying all fossils formed slowly and that they have found science wrong.

    Chap 3

    “Despite the fact that we have now proved our case for rapid fossilization...”

    Again, no one was disputing rapid fossilization, so its a rather hallow victory.


    ”Any theory claiming that fossilization takes thousands or millions of years must ignore this and much other evidence showing that fossilization does occur very rapidly.”

    Heh, And again. They seem to be making up pretend claims to shoot down.

    Chap 4

    Not much to say about Chapter 4. Except for the fact that they seem to be proving the other side. They keep talking about recent Cataclysms that have fossilized things. Showing that things can be fossilized in other ways than just a global flood. Showing that the fossil record could come from something else besides a global flood. Fighting their own points.

    Chap 5

    “There are other evidences of the crushing weight of sediment that often enshrouded living creatures and plants in the Flood. Underground layers of coal, which are sometimes hundreds of feet thick, are the product of vast mats of vegetation being compressed and compacted by tons of overlying sediments in the Flood.”

    So, can someone tell me how the flood fossilized animals as well as crushed them into coal, all in the same instant?

    There are "radioactive halos" in coal that can be seen under a microscope magnified about 250 times

    Polonium Halos. See this link as to why they don’t help creationism.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt/age.html#polonium

    Chap 6

    ”Many insects are found preserved in amber, the most famous specimens being those found in Europe near the Baltic Sea. In one specimen, an ant is working on the larva of another insect which it is using for food, an act requiring only a few seconds.”

    Again, they are fighting themselves. Amber is not something that has anything to do with the Global flood.
    So, by showing that an ant can be frozen in time in only a few seconds, by the amber, they are showing that there are other possible answers than just the flood.

    Chap 7

    Paluxy River footprints near Fort Worth, Texas.

    Although they don't go into detail. The Man foot print in Texas has long been proven false.

    Chap 10

    ”Conclusions . . . Did You Know? . . .”

    “A fossil must form faster than an organism can decay.”


    Why Yes we did know this. However, it also depends on the type of fossil. An organisms skin may decay, but the rest may still fossilize.

    ”Many features preserved as fossils (single cells, DNA fragments, etc.) could have decayed in days or even hours if they had not been fossilized first. “

    again, evolutionists know this. Its not really any evidence for creationism.

    ”Fossils form rapidly, in weeks, days, possibly hours. “


    ”Virtually all fossils formed in the past. “

    Yep.

    ”Almost no fossils are forming today.”

    And yet the article was full of examples of newly formed fossils.

    ”Fossils apparently never form under ordinary conditions. Normally, dead plants and animals rot.”

    This is why fossils are a rather rare thing.

    Even today, the few fossils forming are formed rapidly, under violent conditions, and in mineral- rich solutions.

    Showing that fossils can form in violent situations that aren’t a global flood.

    “These conditions were worldwide during the Flood.”

    While the article assumed this, it never showed it.

    ”Most fossils worldwide formed suddenly in a global, watery cataclysm (the Flood). “

    Really? The article Never showed this. Matter of fact, it seems to have shown that fossils can form any number of different ways. Including from water sediment. But just because a fossil formed underwater, doesnt mean it must have been the water of the Global flood.

    ”Since fossils formed rapidly, so did the rocks they are in.”

    The article never showed this.

    Fossils are a record of death, not life.


    I found that this article didn’t seem to provide any points for creationism. It rehashed things that evolutionists already know. It fought with itself and against made up claims.

    How is that?

    :)

    -Ari
     
  19. Cantuar

    Cantuar Forever England

    +3
    Agnostic
    This is yet another example of the creationist tactic of finding one instance where something can happen quickly and then making this amazing extrapolation to saying that therefore anything (or even everything) else could. On anothe rboard someone's going on about a large canyon on Mars that was apparently carved out over a few months and using that to say that therefore this is how the Grand Canyon must have formed - never mind that the two have quite different features. Given certain rather specialised conditions, fossils can form quickly. That does not mean that every fossil in the world formed quickly; it just means that the ones formed under exceedingly favourable conditions did so. And none of that is relevant in terms of concluding that the Earth is young because the dinosaur fossils, even if they formed in ten seconds, have been found in rocks that are millions of years old.
     
  20. Mechanical Bliss

    Mechanical Bliss Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

    +211
    Atheist
    US-Democrat
    Nope, it can't be.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/41209.html
     
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