Part 3:
What about the 144,000? Is there actually 144,000 people who are predestined like the JWs think? is it a symbolic number? why isn't it literal? why isn't it symbolic?
I don't know exactly what the JW mean about 144,000; but alas, I don't need to, to know what God meant by this because we have the scriptures.
So, lets see what these 144,000 people are, shall we?
Revelations 7:4-8 (I will not type 5-8 but you should read it, it's interesting actually)
4"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. one hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
So, we know that the 144,000 were those sealed from all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelations 14:1-5
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their forehead. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as if were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
I vaguely remembered that the JW says that there will only be 144,000 redeemed on the earth and the use passages like Revelations 7 to prove this. But Revelations 14 gives us an explanation of those 144,000 and as you can see, these were virgins who were redeemed from among men. Here is an example of the bible explaining itself. Now, I don't know if the JW really believe that only 144,000 will be saved, but I know that the belief is not accurate. And fact, I think that belief is somewhat ironic because the same verses in Revelation 7 that the JW use to show that only that many will be saved, the following verses says this:
Revelations 7:9-17
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to be, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in the temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Is Beelzebub Satan himself? or a minion of Satan? or just a Pagan idol?
I'm sorry, I don't know which scripture you are referring too.
Since everything is so lock-stock and barrel, you should have no problem answering these questions.
I am not sure where you have come up with the idea that I have everything so "lock-stock and barrel". I also don't understand why you would think I would have no problem answering those questions, I do not have unlimited amount of knowledge. But I do know where I can find the knowledge of God, which is in His word. Those questions you have asked, there are answers in the bible. I don't know where all of them are, but most of the questions you have asked does have a biblical answer.
So your saying you know scripture equal to that of the apostles?
No, I am saying that I know scripture because of the writings of the Apostles and the interpretation through the Holy Spirit.
And with the apostles, much of what they preached was oral, considering the NT wasn't fully promulgated until after 300 A.D.
I do not understand why you think such a thing.
It is the apostles and those who were eye witnesses who wrote the NT. If you read the writings, you'll realize that the author gives you clue on who he is. The Apostle Paul and Peter out right said it was them who write those epistles. The Apostle Paul even went to far as to say that
I, Paul, write this with my own hands..... Philemon 1:19
The bible is dripping with first hand accounts of what is going on. It was them who wrote scripture. Scripture was not written 300 years after.
Now, it might have all been gathered together and bound 300 years later but it most certainly was not written. Those who bound the word 300 years later did not write anything, the scriptures were already written. And as for saying that most of what the Apostles said were oral, no, I'm pretty sure they had some form of paper and ink back then. They most certainly knew how to write and they did so. Scripture is clear about that.
Oral teaching came first, then people like Mark and Luke recorded it. So the apostles were speaking by a special commission directly from the Holy Spirit and to write God breathed inspired scripture.
Luke had first hand account of what he wrote. It was him who went on the missions with Paul. He was around those apostles to know what was going on. Mark (most people think it is John Mark) probably recorded it but he was with Peter, so he most certainly would have known the gospel.
considering God usually sends his message and revelation through men and doesn't drop a book from the sky I would assume what some men say is very important.
I am not saying that what some may say are not important. However we disagree on who those men are in this present age. We know that God sent His message and revelation through certain man because we have scripture to prove so. We know that God elected some to write His scripture because the bible tells us so, but what man say is not what is important but what God said through those men are what is most important.
The hebrews didn't say to Moses "well since your a man, I will not listen to you, I will listen to God directly".
Actually, the Hebrew most certainly did not say "I will listen to God directly". When they were to meet God, they were scared and made Moses go up there and talk to God by himself. But the Israelites are probably not the best example for this...for they even killed the prophets which God have brought to them. But even the Israelites asked for signs and the prophets showed those signs by giving them prophecies. If those prophecies came true, they were pretty well established that they were of God. If those prophecies however were found to be false, the Israelites were not to listen to them, however we know that during the Kings time Israelites started to listen to those false prophets.
If you read the bible you will notice he confers his message mainly through men(prophets, patriarchs, apostles, judges, etc). He does direct divine revelation in some cases, like with Elijah and Moses on the top of Mount Sinai, or Noah and Lot, but those are very rare cases.
I understand that. But through those men they were told to write the scriptures. How do you think we know anything about the God nowadays?
funny how that is exactly what I was saying. Reading the bible in the context of the body of Christians , and more importantly the ancient Father's and councils.
No, the irony is that there was not a council there speaking to the Eunuch. The Eunuch was reading out of Isaiah and Philip came to him and explained it more fully and Philip preached Christ to him, but Philip did so through the Holy Spirit.
I guess the apostles were wrong when they made a consensus on Matthias?? Or made a consensus in the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts?
When you speak of Matthias, do you mean the casting of lots?
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Acts 1:21-26
"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us to His resurrection." And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
It seems that it wasn't them who decided but that they prayed and the lots told them of God's decision on which of the two should be a witness and be in the ministry of apostleship.
As for the Jerusalem Council, these were chosen men by God. The scriptures were being revealed to them at the time, so if they had any matter that arose, of course they would confer to each other. But for us, now-a-days, we have all the scriptures gathered together in one place. Those scriptures is what determines our doctrine not a consensus. The council came together because of the issue of circumcision, we however should not have that issue because circumcision has been told to us through the Apostle Paul in Romans and Galatians.
