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so you know more than the pope?

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Meepy

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What or how much the pope knows is of very little consequence to me.

Well, by reading some of his works, he obviously has read the bible. He approaches the bible on many different perspectives of exegesis. Regarding context there are many different forms one can read the bible in, whether it be historical, symbolic, numeric, christo-centric, prophetic, preteristic, futuristic, parabolic, etc

I think before people start claiming they know the bible better than someone else they should actually study the person who they claim they know better than. In the US almost half of all professing Christians think abortion, divorce, and contraception are ok and that Jesus changed the water into non-alcoholic grape juice at Cana. So obviously there is a great misunderstanding of morals regarding the bible. So if they think the Pope never reads the bible, they should at least read his works before making conclusions they know very little about. "Jesus of Nazareth" would be a great start if they want to do actual research on the pope's knowledge.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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I have a feeling he reads it more than a large amount of people, especially if you read his books he's published and the enormous amount of education he's had.. He's published many books on things like Jesus's Life, theology, eschatology, doctrine and dogma, scriptural exegesis. Quite funny when you compare it to these people who brag they know more than everyone else regarding scripture and then go dumbfaced when you talk to them about the operation of grace or the hypostatic union or the nature's of Christ's subsistence.
Many people don't need to write a book about Jesus' life, theology, eschatology, and doctrine, that would just be rewriting scripture. No one has to actually write such a book to actually know Jesus' life, His theologies and His doctrines, one just have to be studious in studying God's word for all of that is explained in the bible.


Reading the bible is the only thing that matters in Christianity? This is a wonderful example of how sola scriptura and bible-lism gives a severely limited view of Christianity and can desperately hurt missionary work and charity. There are so many more things with regards to charity, almsgiving, caring for widows and poor, social justice, patristics, moral and dogmatic theology, homilies, politics, abortion, Church history and tradition, and spreading the Good news to unknown lands with missionaries, etc. Reading the bible, which is a collection of books(not one book like biblicists think) has a very important part in christianity, but it sure isn't the only sole thing.
If we are speaking about the Pope's knowledge of the bible, then most certainly reading the bible is the only thing that matters. If we are speaking about the Pope's Christian lifestyle then you look at other matters, which includes the reading of the bible but not limited too. However, the OP was speaking about the Pope's biblical knowledge.
 
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Meepy

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Many people don't need to write a book about Jesus' life, theology, eschatology, and doctrine, that would just be rewriting scripture. No one has to actually write such a book to actually know Jesus' life, His theologies and His doctrines, one just have to be studious in studying God's word for all of that is explained in the bible.
Like things like "faith without works is dead"? Oh wait, you don't 'agree' with that. Or the drinking of Christs flesh and blood? Literal? symbolic? Jesus seems quite literal in those verses. Baptism? Liberal, symbolic? Unfortunately the bible doesn't say "this is a literal verse" or "this is a symbolic verse"

please, you think someone can just sit down and read something like the Book of Revelation or the Book of Daniel with all its symbolism, numeric-ism, futurism, and historic parallelism and all of a sudden understand it? You really have something coming if you think you can interpret the bible with the bible. There is no way I could of at least half-way understood things like Revelation and Daniel without using patristic, scholastic, and exegetical sources. And that includes reading things like the early Fathers and doctors. Scripture must be read in the universal character of the Church. Adding in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and councils regarding certain verses and chapters. You simply cannot read the bible cut off from the rest of the body of Christ. The Ethiopian didn't tell Phillip he would learn the scriptures himself when he had trouble with a verse in Isaiah. Nor did Timothy say that to Paul.

those thousands of denominations claim the exact same thing and yet they cannot agree barely on anything. Even things like salvation itself, the Trinity, justification, communion, etc. WHy do you think the early Church had such issues with things like Arianism where over half of the professing Christians didn't even understand or correctly know the nature of Christ and his hypostatic union.


If we are speaking about the Pope's knowledge of the bible, then most certainly reading the bible is the only thing that matters. If we are speaking about the Pope's Christian lifestyle then you look at other matters, which includes the reading of the bible but not limited too. However, the OP was speaking about the Pope's biblical knowledge.
But the thing is, you don't know anything about the Popes knowledge of the bible unless you read what he has written or listen to his sermons and encyclicals. Unless you know him personally you don't know diddly about the Pope's knowledge of the bible. You can't make blanket statements about someones knowledge of the bible, and the successor of Peter of all people. A little humility can go a long way you know.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I'm pretty certain that Pope Benedict XVI is much smarter than I am, knows way more than I do, is far more educated and has a far better grasp at theology. That all said, it doesn't necessarily mean--if him and I ever hypothetically sat down over a cup of coffee to talk theology--would agree. That's not because I think I know more than he does, it just means that we disagree.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ebia

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If Jesus is enough for you, then why all the clergy?
Because we are called to be a community, not just a set of individuals. And communities need particular people to take on different functions just as Paul said.
 
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ebia

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you are ignoring my question.

I'll wait for the answer. anything else, talk to the hand
No, I don't. But I know some people who do also have impressive credentials and have spent their lives also studying scripture, who disagree with him at various points and agree at others. I try to learn what I can from all of them (including Benedict).
 
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ebia

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he has a crown too .
If you are referring to the Papal Tiara, Paul VI sold that and gave the money to the poor; Benedict had it removed from the papal arms. They both did that to say "this role is not about that sort of power".
 
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ebia

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I think most of the people in my church know the Bible better than he does.

Heck, I think most of the people in the New Believers' class in my church know the Bible better than he does.
I'm afraid you're just displaying your ignorance. If you read any of Benedict's writting you'd realise that he knows the bible extremely well and is heavily committed to improving the biblical literacy of his flock, ensuring every Christian has access to the bible and is taught how to read it,....
 
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sunlover1

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You know, all the credentials you gave for the Pope, you neglected the most important one. How often does he read his bible? That's the only thing that matters.

That's the only thing I need to know. Nothing else really matters, does it?
Reading His Bible isn't the only thing that matters, no.
but yes, it's certainly (God's Word) right up there!
:thumbsup:
Without knowing God though, it's just a bunch of words
on pages. kwim?
So imo, it's not "the only thing that matters" for any Christian.
That's what I meant :)

I think before people start claiming they know the bible better than someone else they should actually study the person who they claim they know better than.
Kind of a silly contest anyhow. What's the prize again? ;)
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Like things like "faith without works is dead"? Oh wait, you don't 'agree' with that. Or the drinking of Christs flesh and blood? Literal? symbolic? Jesus seems quite literal in those verses. Baptism? Liberal, symbolic? Unfortunately the bible doesn't say "this is a literal verse" or "this is a symbolic verse"
Let's make one thing clear, do not assume what I believe and don't believe. If you want to know, ask me. As for taking the bible literally or figuratively, the one great thing about reading it, is that the bible explains itself. The context give you the clues of what is literal and figurative.

please, you think someone can just sit down and read something like the Book of Revelation or the Book of Daniel with all its symbolism, numeric-ism, futurism, and historic parallelism and all of a sudden understand it? You really have something coming if you think you can interpret the bible with the bible.
I don't interpret the scripture, the Holy Spirit does that for all those who were baptized and received Him.

There is no way I could of at least half-way understood things like Revelation and Daniel without using patristic, scholastic, and exegetical sources. And that includes reading things like the early Fathers and doctors.
How exactly do you think they understood scripture? Was it not the Apostles who went around teaching the first century church? Was it not the Holy Scripture helping them understand? We are told that the Holy Scripture works through the scripture. We are not told to understand scripture on our own, it is the Holy Spirit's job to interpret it for us. The scripture tells us that it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual understanding (1 Corinthians 2). So, no, I agree that I wouldn't understand any of that on my own. But it is not by my understanding that I lean. Most certainly when Christ gave the great commission in Matthew 28:18-20, teaching was emphasized. And the Holy Spirit does give some to be teachers and discerner and so on, but realize that it is should be the Holy Spirit who is doing this and He helps us through the word.

Scripture must be read in the universal character of the Church.
Who told you that? Did the scriptures say such a thing or did man?

Adding in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and councils regarding certain verses and chapters. You simply cannot read the bible cut off from the rest of the body of Christ. The Ethiopian didn't tell Phillip he would learn the scriptures himself when he had trouble with a verse in Isaiah. Nor did Timothy say that to Paul.
The irony of the Ethiopian Eunuch was that he was reading the bible apart from the rest of the body. Yet Philip came to him and explained Christ to him. There wasn't an unanimous consent of people needed, but Philip was lead by the Holy Spirit.

those thousands of denominations claim the exact same thing and yet they cannot agree barely on anything. Even things like salvation itself, the Trinity, justification, communion, etc. WHy do you think the early Church had such issues with things like Arianism where over half of the professing Christians didn't even understand or correctly know the nature of Christ and his hypostatic union.
Consensus does not determine doctrine. Scripture determines doctrine.

But the thing is, you don't know anything about the Popes knowledge of the bible unless you read what he has written or listen to his sermons and encyclicals. Unless you know him personally you don't know diddly about the Pope's knowledge of the bible. You can't make blanket statements about someones knowledge of the bible, and the successor of Peter of all people. A little humility can go a long way you know.
I challenge you to find the post where I have stated that I know about the Pope's knowledge of the bible. I simply stated that the most important thing that was left off his credentials was how long he has studied the bible. I have never said, "I have studied and know more than the pope", I simply meant that the OP forgot to tell us how often the Pope studied scripture. I am not sure what blanket statement that I have made of someone's knowledge of the bible, so please enlighten me.

"and the successor of Peter of all people"...that is another topic for another day. And if I somehow showed pride in my post, I apologize. I simply wanted to state that the OP left off the most important credential of one's knowledge of the bible...which is, how often does he read it.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Reading His Bible isn't the only thing that matters, no.
but yes, it's certainly (God's Word) right up there!
:thumbsup:
Without knowing God though, it's just a bunch of words
on pages. kwim?
So imo, it's not "the only thing that matters" for any Christian.
That's what I meant :)
When the OP is showing off the credentials of the Pope to say he knows "this much about the bible" why would you leave the amount of time he actually study the bible out of it?

No offense but this is not about "any Christian". I'm not sitting here asking how someone lives their Christian life, I am simply saying that if I am to compare the knowledge of the Pope with mine, which the OP is asking us to do, then I must know how often does the Pope read his bible? It's that simple. I am not making a judgment call on his life or any other Christian for that matter, I am isolating one part of his life which is his biblical knowledge. And I want to know how long does he study the bible. That's it.

Yeah it's great that he taught in all these classes. But I wasn't in any of those classes, how do I know what he taught was accurate every day he taught? Yeah it's great that he wrote all those books. But I didn't read them because I don't understand why I would when I can just read the bible? When I actually read some of his quotes and his explanations on some doctrines, I've been turned off because some of them have not even been discussed in scripture (don't ask me to recall, it was a long time ago, around the time that he first became Pope. I remember he made a statement about something and went on to explain it and I checked it in scripture and what he said was wrong to begin with....if I can remember what it was or the article, I'll post it).

And let me say this before someone else get mad, I don't read self-help books or books about the actual bible, because I don't see the reason to when I can actually just read the bible itself. I don't feel right listening to people tell me what the bible says and not checking on scripture. And there are a lot of false doctrines floating around that I know that as long as I'm reading my scriptures, I at least have the truth...and I'll allow the Holy Spirit to interpret it as He does.
 
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98cwitr

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Because we are called to be a community, not just a set of individuals. And communities need particular people to take on different functions just as Paul said.

I have no qualm with that sentiment. But when these functions become leadership into a form that dictates what you believe and what you dont...whether it contradicts Scripture or not, it's dangerous.
 
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Stryder06

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:doh:

I have a feeling he reads it more than a large amount of people, especially if you read his books he's published and the enormous amount of education he's had.. He's published many books on things like Jesus's Life, theology, eschatology, doctrine and dogma, scriptural exegesis. Quite funny when you compare it to these people who brag they know more than everyone else regarding scripture and then go dumbfaced when you talk to them about the operation of grace or the hypostatic union or the nature's of Christ's subsistence.

Reading the bible is the only thing that matters in Christianity? This is a wonderful example of how sola scriptura and bible-lism gives a severely limited view of Christianity and can desperately hurt missionary work and charity. There are so many more things with regards to charity, almsgiving, caring for widows and poor, social justice, patristics, moral and dogmatic theology, homilies, politics, abortion, Church history and tradition, and spreading the Good news to unknown lands with missionaries, etc. Reading the bible, which is a collection of books(not one book like biblicists think) has a very important part in christianity, but it sure isn't the only sole thing.

1st) What books on eschatology has he written? I've been trying to find out what your church teaches for the longest on end time events and can't find anything other then "Jesus comes back and that's it". I'd be interested in looking it over.

2nd) I pretty much disagree with everything else...well kind of. Suffice it to say that I don't think it's necessary to read other books to learn about theology, caring for the poor, politics, etc, etc. However I won't say there isn't value in reading other books relating to the christian lifestyle. The thing is that, at least from my perspective, it would seem that equal value is given to the literature of the "church fathers" and the traditions, as it is given to the bible. That shouldn't be.
 
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Optimax

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Reading His Bible isn't the only thing that matters, no.
but yes, it's certainly (God's Word) right up there!
:thumbsup:
Without knowing God though, it's just a bunch of words
on pages. kwim?
So imo, it's not "the only thing that matters" for any Christian.
That's what I meant :)


Kind of a silly contest anyhow. What's the prize again? ;)


The Prize. What is really at stake is humongous(that means super huge).

Everyone is staking their eternity on what they are believing will save them.

The Prize?

Eternal Life with God.
 
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Meepy

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Let's make one thing clear, do not assume what I believe and don't believe. If you want to know, ask me. As for taking the bible literally or figuratively, the one great thing about reading it, is that the bible explains itself. The context give you the clues of what is literal and figurative.
The bible explains itself...

30,000 denominations later....

I don't interpret the scripture, the Holy Spirit does that for all those who were baptized and received Him.
Like the JW or the Mormon who says they have the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit led them to interpret scripture under the guidelines of Joseph Smith?

And where is it in the bible where it says "I will give you the Holy Spirit so you can interpret scripture"

By all means, explain who the 'little horn' is in the book of Daniel. Who are the other horns? What does 666 signify? Is the Beast or Dragon an actual beast or dragon? Is 666 Nero's name in greek? How much has already passed in the book of revelation? Or is it all futuristic? Pre trib or post trib, amillenial? Are the 6 days of creation 24 hour human days? Or are they 6 periods outside human time? Or is it simply a poetic revelation of God's creation that doesn't take into account time? They say a thousand years to God is a day and a day a thousand years. Are the 6 days 6000 years then? Is there a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus Christ or is the thousand years a symbolic number or a symbol of the reigning of the Church? Is satan bound, or is he not bound yet? What about the 144,000? Is there actually 144,000 people who are predestined like the JWs think? is it a symbolic number? why isn't it literal? why isn't it symbolic? Is Beelzebub Satan himself? or a minion of Satan? or just a Pagan idol?

Since everything is so lock-stock and barrel, you should have no problem answering these questions.


How exactly do you think they understood scripture? Was it not the Apostles who went around teaching the first century church? Was it not the Holy Scripture helping them understand? We are told that the Holy Scripture works through the scripture. We are not told to understand scripture on our own, it is the Holy Spirit's job to interpret it for us. The scripture tells us that it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual understanding (1 Corinthians 2). So, no, I agree that I wouldn't understand any of that on my own. But it is not by my understanding that I lean. Most certainly when Christ gave the great commission in Matthew 28:18-20, teaching was emphasized. And the Holy Spirit does give some to be teachers and discerner and so on, but realize that it is should be the Holy Spirit who is doing this and He helps us through the word.
So your saying you know scripture equal to that of the apostles? And with the apostles, much of what they preached was oral, considering the NT wasn't fully promulgated until after 300 A.D. Oral teaching came first, then people like Mark and Luke recorded it. So the apostles were speaking by a special commission directly from the Holy Spirit and to write God breathed inspired scripture.


Who told you that? Did the scriptures say such a thing or did man?
considering God usually sends his message and revelation through men and doesn't drop a book from the sky I would assume what some men say is very important. The hebrews didn't say to Moses "well since your a man, I will not listen to you, I will listen to God directly". If you read the bible you will notice he confers his message mainly through men(prophets, patriarchs, apostles, judges, etc). He does direct divine revelation in some cases, like with Elijah and Moses on the top of Mount Sinai, or Noah and Lot, but those are very rare cases.


The irony of the Ethiopian Eunuch was that he was reading the bible apart from the rest of the body. Yet Philip came to him and explained Christ to him. There wasn't an unanimous consent of people needed, but Philip was lead by the Holy Spirit.
funny how that is exactly what I was saying. Reading the bible in the context of the body of Christians , and more importantly the ancient Father's and councils.

Consensus does not determine doctrine. Scripture determines doctrine.
I guess the apostles were wrong when they made a consensus on Matthias?? Or made a consensus in the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts?


I challenge you to find the post where I have stated that I know about the Pope's knowledge of the bible. I simply stated that the most important thing that was left off his credentials was how long he has studied the bible. I have never said, "I have studied and know more than the pope", I simply meant that the OP forgot to tell us how often the Pope studied scripture. I am not sure what blanket statement that I have made of someone's knowledge of the bible, so please enlighten me.

"and the successor of Peter of all people"...that is another topic for another day. And if I somehow showed pride in my post, I apologize. I simply wanted to state that the OP left off the most important credential of one's knowledge of the bible...which is, how often does he read it.

no, the most important credential is charity and ones knowledge of Christianity as a whole. They are all equally important. Reading the scripture is just as important as listening to the voice of the Church, helping the poor, alms-giving, prayer, fasting and avoiding sin.
 
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Meepy

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1st) What books on eschatology has he written? I've been trying to find out what your church teaches for the longest on end time events and can't find anything other then "Jesus comes back and that's it". I'd be interested in looking it over.

.

The Church follows an amillennial view, but also includes preterist and futurist concepts depending on the exegesis being used. The interesting thing was the Pope Benedict XVI was writing books while he was a cardinal too.

Amazon.com: Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life (Dogmatic Theology, Vol 9) (9780813206332): Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, Johann Auer: Books

Although I think if you wanna get a good view of the ancient fathers on scripture and the end times you should read the Catena Aurea(which I have been dying to own one day) :)

http://www.amazon.com/Catena-Aurea-...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297262494&sr=1-2


Catena Aurea: Commentary on the Four Gospels (8 vols.) - Logos Bible Software
 
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Stryder06

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godisreal36

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The Pope is only a Man. I love Catholics don't get me wrong. But to assume the Catholic Church is the only true and correct Church is false. We all Belong to the Lord. I find it curious that Someone could post on another persons wall, yet leave no way of letting them respond in PM or VM.So if you wish to blame someone, blame the self righteous Holy crusader spreading his Hate by not allowing me to send Him a PM. Don't blame me, i just speak the truth.

If the Catholic Church alone is the true Church, how do you explain the Holy crusades, murder in the name of the church? A false belief. How do you explain a lot of false beliefs by the Catholic church if they are the only true Church Of our Lord and master Jesus Christ? Priests molesting children is so awful the world judges us all because of it. Catholics belong to Jesus but so do all the rest. Please don't think for one minutes that the Catholics are above any other. Their past sins against the world contradicts the idea of Catholics as the true Church. I see the catholic Church coming to a rude awakening one day as we all will. Its the Lords will that we be united and love one another. Forget your false beliefs and be united in Christ alone.
 
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