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So you get to Heaven, and there is still so much more you could 'evolve' - disappointed?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Gottservant, Sep 4, 2021.

I always thought...

  1. ...that which needed to evolve was more important

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  2. ...that which did not need to evolve was more important

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  3. ...that mastering Evolution until something changed was important

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  4. ...that mastering Evolution was irrelevant, enough being changed already

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  5. ...that I could benefit from Evolution, regardless of what was enough

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  6. ...that the Day would come when those who used Evolution properly would prosper

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  7. ...that the Day would come when God created something other than Evolution, to prosper

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  8. ...that Evolution was in need of something to complete, in order to be justified

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  9. ...that if Evolution could not complete it, nothing besides Evolution was true

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  10. ...that a true word, always answers the Master that created it (selah)

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Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    Hi there,

    So this is basically the problem of the faith, when it comes to "Evolution" - that is, this is what people with faith object to, when they say "I would rather just be in Heaven (with God), than 'evolve' - that is, in a way that prevents me from being with God." What exactly is enough? What would I want to delay enjoyment of Heaven, for? Is there something? Is there something that would justify all the joys of Heaven, being put on hold?

    The point is not to stray outside of science, just to assert how ever scientifically, that there is a limit that anything, will reach, when it comes to the Will of God - that the will of God is never "perdition" as opposed to enjoying life in Heaven with Him. I know that it may sound like the same thing to you, the Bible warns that people without faith think that God's restraint is evidence of perdition (from memory, letters), but the point I am trying to make is that you are not given time to evolve, as if there is no end, there will be an end, after which it will not matter how much you "want" to 'evolve' you will just never receive from God the faith to evolve further, than you already have.

    The point being, that there are many promises made by people - prophets, scientists, leaders, and so on - this side of Heaven and we need to be cautious, which of them are genuine. A good test (as to whether they are genuine) is to suggest that the thing promised, might have a place in Heaven. In Evolution's sense, it might help to suggest that part of the proposed "adaptation" be a "heavenly adaptation" - something God given, or God justified, in principle. By doing this, we can see, in what way it is thought to related to the rest of Heaven, where there are many faiths and many reasons to enjoy the presence of God - and which God zealously defends, because He cannot deny faith (in the sense that Jesus cannot deny Himself - sort of thing).

    It is not for misery, that I ask this, I really want to believe that my Evolution is the right solution to the world's problems, in as much as I can see it working to that effect. It's just that to date I have not been told anything that is strictly Heavenly about "Evolution", as opposed to "more needless adaptation" which is Hell. Part of the problem is that as a people, the members of the world, we have not been shown "this is good Evolution" or "this is bad Evolution" and it really is to science's shame that it has not developed a capacity to test this as far as faith is concerned - perhaps my OP here will prove a change in that, Idk - if people had condescended to be a little more faithful, as regards Evolution, perhaps by now we would have a standard, of the expectations of good Evolution, on the growth of the world's Health and Safety.

    But there is a danger here, and it is with some pain that I put it forth, that if there was a universal way to interpret Evolution, it might not continue to function as the ruse, it so effectively becomes in the way of putting distance between those who want to know what they know and those who assume it (that they know), even when they are not producing a specific fruit of good or bad. In the faith we call this being "lukewarm" and the consequence is that Jesus stops having faith in you, whether you call yourself a Christian or not! It's not as if I am making up there is a boogey man in Evolution - if my Christianity can become irrelevant, so can your Evolution! The problem is for every effective ruse, there is an equal and opposite expectation that you will fall into your own trap, which is a snare. And if there is anything I have wanted to avoid the most: it's trapping people.

    What we are told, in terms of scripture, is that in the end, we should not assume that our faith will change how we are treated, but that we should say "We are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do" (from memory, the gospels). In other words, we should really conduct ourselves, as if "Evolution" is 'over' - that the whole thing that was expected of us, was to bring it to an end (a recognizable end, I would argue). If we did that - assume Evolution was over - what would that change? Would we lose anything? I argue that our lives would be more fulfilled, that we would take greater advantage of Heaven - the light and ease, that it brought. Which is why I have posted this...

    But I know no way of learning is powerful, without consensus, so I put it to you: is your experience of Heaven any different to anyone else's because of Evolution? If you get to Heaven and there is "more to be evolved" are you unable to say "we are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do"? I understand that we all have to live by faith, how much greater it would be, if we understood where we stood, when we said we believed in Evolution, which Evolution we believed it to be? I think there is more to be mastered, if there is time at all, than if we begin to say "the master is delaying his coming" and we begin to get drunk and beat our fellow servants - Jesus warns that the master will come at time the servant is not ready and cut him in two (from memory, the gospels). Let the Holy Spirit point this out to you, it is not simply "I" who say this, but God.

    I don't know that you realise how happy it would make me, to reach a point where we see this, in each other - our Evolution at work, through mastery. Life on the hunt, is a great life - if it is for something sustainable - I for one would like to see men work together, on bringing in the outlier of their nation, the one whose hope needs the most attention. The trouble is working for something, to give that one with less hope. There is no change of mind, which satisfies the mind of God that work is done - something has to be said, until the Evolution of Evolution has been heard and understood to remove the incomplete, for the sake of the complete! That is the Evolution I want to know! Even if it turns out that everything I have done to understand Evolution is for nothing, if I knew that the incomplete had to make way for the complete - I would rejoice!

    Maybe, that is the point I have been trying to make, perhaps not: thank you at least for listening to me. In time we may all be blessed (if the Devil does not get the upper hand after all!).

    (selah).
     
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  2. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,934
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Slightly strange post.

    When we see Him we'll have been changed and we'll be extremely happy because in His presence is fullness of joy!

    BTW, Satan can't steal the Shepherd's sheep.
     
  3. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +4,233
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    Individuals do not evolve. Populations evolve over time. You know this. Your question is based on a false premise.
     
  4. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    So you are disappointed?

    Because you say "yet though I see change, yet I cannot evolve"?

    Heaven is (more and more) unable to inspire you? Or your words? Or something?
     
  5. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +4,233
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    No. None of that.

    I pointed out that according to TOE individuals do not evolve: populations do.
     
  6. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    Then you are simply disappointed, on purpose?

    If someone told me I was part of a population (that had evolved), and I could not evolve further - I would be disappointed?

    I wonder, would I be disappointed in myself, or God? What do you think?
     
  7. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +4,233
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    No. None of that either. No individual evolves. But the allele frequency of the population changes over time.

    Let me ask you a question. According to the modern synthesis what is the significance of allele frequency change?

    That would be fundamental to your understanding TOE.
     
  8. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    Again, if I was told "your population had a set of allele frequencies, but you are not allowed to change them" I would be disappointed - but as I said "would I be disappointed in myself, or in God?" what do you think?

    It's a lottery, with genes (which if thought to be something other than a lottery, is somehow a "sin" to Evolutionists?).
     
  9. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +4,233
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    No. None of that. The allele frequency in YOUR genes is slightly different from your parents.

    Does that disappoint you? Do you know what that change in frequency means?
     
  10. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    It is supposed to mean that by the time I have children of my own, what my children perceive as adaptable will be as adaptable, as what I perceived was adaptable in my parents, but could not change, because of what they believed was adaptable in theirs (their parents).

    That is the definition of change, in terms of one generation's inheritance.

    Why would l not be disappointed, that my inheritance had varied in a way that I could not replicate? I should be happy with a path of "estrangement" like you are?
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,797
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We will be like Christ (God). You cannot get any better than that.
     
  12. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

    +4,855
    United Kingdom
    Deist
    Single
    I'm not going to read a wall of text that just highlights how Gottservant still does not understand evolution.
     
  13. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

    +2,316
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    Heaven is merely the waiting room, the new earth is the final destination or at least the final one we are told about in scripture.

    And sorry Gottservant I didn't read anymore since as I said before I never understand what you post. :/
     
  14. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +4,233
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    No. None of that. It’s not about perception. Your definition is not the one used in the new synthesis. That explains why you are on the wrong track.

    Any children you have will have a different allele frequency than you and your partner have.
     
  15. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    Christ was made a little lower than the angels - it doesn't bother you that the angels of this world persecute the faithful on the basis of Evolution?
     
  16. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    That's because according to Evolution, the right selection pressure could develop an end to Evolution?
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,797
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Man was made a little lower than the angels. Christ is God now in a glorified human body.
     
  18. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    If you are trying to understand all of it, you are not helping me or you.

    You should have an argument of your own, that you think of, when you reply.
     
  19. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    You speak about my children, as if they get a difference to me that I do not get or that they do not get?
     
  20. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +584
    Messianic
    Yes, ok, but it is the testimony of Christ's glorified body, that I claim is an answer to the Evolution of Man.

    You are asserting it, that helps, but specifically how does it help?
     
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