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So which reason is it we want Sadam out??

gwyyn

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Just want to know what your opinion is on why Bush and several other countries are so hot to get rid of Sadam

 

 

grrrr supposed to be a poll here, but i forgot to check the poll box.

 

Ok buy my choices on the poll were gonna be:

 

1.  Oil Oil Oil

2.  Sadam is a real threat to America and the nations surrounding it.

3.  Bush wants to finish what his father Bush Sr. started

4.  Dunno/don't care just against war

5.  dunno/don't care  woohooo  look at those big guns!!
 

Ryder

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He has invaded his neighbors before (recently). He has used chemical weapons before (again, recently). He supports radical Islam/Anti-Jewish-American. He funnels money to Palastinian extremists from time to time. He fits the bill of a jerk pretty well to me.
 
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strathyboy

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I think it has to be a combination of factors, since for any one factor you can pick, there is another nation more suitable to invade. In any case, even with all the factors, the US is allied with worse leaders right now and should consider the hypocrisy of it's political position.
What is the most significant factor in my mind is the state of the middle east. Iraq is no threat to the United States, but it is a threat to several American allies in the middle east, most notably Israel.
 
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Originally posted by blindfaith
I guess you could use all of those reasons strathyboy ;)

I agree with you. It's just when you ask why an American supports the war, the UN resolutions are not usually near the top of the list. I guess people like to have God and moral goodness on their side as well as international law.
 
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stray bullet

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Originally posted by strathyboy
So why so much fuss about him being an evil, nasty, dictator and Iraqi's getting hurt? If you have something undebatable like breaking UN resolutions, why use the other stuff?

Why talk about the holocaust?
The evil stuff is to let us now how important our actions are.
 
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stray bullet

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Originally posted by strathyboy
I agree with you. It's just when you ask why an American supports the war, the UN resolutions are not usually near the top of the list.

All my reasons for attacking Iraq have revolved around that. I don't really care about everyone else.
 
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strathyboy

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Originally posted by stray bullet
Why talk about the holocaust?
The evil stuff is to let us now how important our actions are.

Are there plans to help those oppressed under brutal dictatorships after Iraq is dealt with?
How much would you like to wager that there will not be?
 
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pace

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Originally posted by panterapat
"If that isn't evil then evil has no meaning."
- George W. Bush
(State of the Union address refering to Saddam's past actions)

 

I mostly agree with this guy for what I've read, he explains some things very well, got a book by him too named: "The philosophy of evil" :
I've just discovered this guy some months ago, and look very much forward to read his whole book soon.

Lars Fr. H. Svendsen, philosopher and primor-amanuensis in philosophy at the University in Bergen, Norway

Svendsens depressions.

The evil are always "the others".
He says the timing for his book was depressingly timing and thinks about the action of terror in USA.
"It's facinating to watch CNN and realize how shady the rhetorics of evil in media is. The american defenceminister, Powell, says that the terrorists represensts "pure absolute evil", while the terrorists responds that "the USA is satan". It's an insane rhetoric. I don't think that people act evil just because they are americans or muslims.
It represents a antiquated explenation that a enemy is possessed, or depraved by an evil, demonic and supernatural force. For me that would be to explain away the evil act"
- You mean that all evil has the ability to do both good and evil ?
" Yes, the empirism shows this. It's no other explanation on the evil in the world that the most of the evil is done by normal nice people.
It's normal to be evil, but we refuse describing uself as evil.
The evil is always "the others" "

Don't need Satan.
" We don't need the imagination of evil. The nazists deathcamps was the realization of a hell on earth. The SS-officers did something evil in that faith that they worked for a good cause, like the terrorists.
They are convised that it's moraly allowed, and commanded to do some evil, because they are fighting something negative. These invidualists think over good and evil, but choose wrong. This is called instrumental evil." says Lars, he is also busy with the dumb-evil, which concludes individs act without thinking they are doing niether good or evil.

" The problem with people is their surplus of agression, but their lack of reflection. Last Monday I was with Hydro(norwegian oil company) and kept a lecture about dumb tradespeople, and they agreed to pretty much everything I said. I just demand some reflection around the target.
I don't want to deny people to earn money. But profit can only be justified being a goal if it creates good."

Humanly sewer.
" The individs group-loyalty often strenghten the lack of reflection around what they are doing. Own oppinions can often become something illoyal and suspect in a group. It became explicit clear in the firstprinsip which every german soldier had to swear to. They shouldn't just put their own personal interests to the comunity, but also their "personal oppinions"
But how did it go with the SS-officers after the war?
They was normal family fathers which enjoyed a late night with the family when they had just came home from the deathcamps where they had beaten and badgered prisoners on the most explicit. How can this be ?
- Amazingly few took this stuff emotionall inwards. It's understandable.
How is it you take inwards that you're a pig. It's important to underline that it was guards who behaved decent. At the same time being a prisoner was equal to being good. Many prisoners overdone the guards in being horrible.
- I've been through a lot of stuff about humanly sewer behavior- After a while I just got pretty depressed working on the subject. But I have taken out the explecited descriptions of evil, because it easily builds up our own picture of evil like something unfamiliar/unknown. A motive with me has been showing the depressingly potential that each one of us has the ability to do the most insane stuff."
 
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pace

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There is another passage in his book on "The philosophy of evil" (over 300 books on philosophy as bibliography at the end) where he recites a letter by Dietrich Bonhoeffer words from prison in Germany right before Germany was capitulated in WW2
In his letter there is a passage named "About stupidity" :

"Stupidity is a more dangerous an enemy for the good than evil.
You can protest aganst the evil, it can be put to open, in emergency hindered by force, the evil carries always the sound of it's own destruction, because it leaves at least unpleasantness in humans.
Against dumbness on the other hand we are defenceless.
There you cannot acomplish anything either with protests or force; arguments doesn't help; actions which speaks against the already given oppinions just doesn't get to be believed - in such cases the dumb even get opposed/critic -, and if they aren't so easily looked away from, they can just be thrown away as one-time incidents. Also the dumb, opposed to the evil, fully happy with himself; yes, he even is dangerous because he so easily get annoyed and goes to attack. Thus you have to be more carefull with the stupid than the evil one. We shall never try and convinse the stupid one with arguments, it's pointless and dangerous.
If we are going to contra the stupidity, we have to understand how it works. This much is for sure that it's not primarely a intelectual, but human defect. It exists intelectually remarkably well equipped people which are stupid, and intelectually speking slow people who is everything BUT stupid. This we realize in our own amazement in certain cituation. The impression that stupidity is an inborn weakness isn't really that strong as it's people which is being MADE stupid in certain situations, or other words, reduction to a state of stupidity. And we'll see people who live for themself lonely, show this defect more seldom than people in groups which has need or is already in comeradship.
Stupidity seems thus more of an sociologic problem than psycological.
It is specially a result of how certain historic circumstances works on humans, a psycological phenomena which leads other outersituations.
If we look closer, it shows every strong, outer forcedoing of politic or religious kind beats a big part of humans with stupidity. Yes, it almost seems like an sociological-psycological law. Ones power needs the others stupidity. It take place such not that certain human abilites - ie. the intelectual - falls or fades away, but the imminent impresion the powerdoing does on certain people, steals them their own inner independence., and they give - more or less uncounscious - up to find a independence in the situations they meet. That the stupid often is stubborn, mustn't lead us to believe he is intependent. One notices already in conversations with him, that it's not him personally we have to deal with, but slagons and paroles etc. which obselutely has taken over him. He is possesed, blinded, mistreated in his whole being.
Made to an willess instrument on that way he is capable of doing all sorts of evil, and at the same time cannot recognize evil. Herein lies the danger of develish abuse, which can break down the human race forever"
 
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pace

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Last words(summary):



The evil is not primarely a theoretical problem, but a practical problem.
Though uncountable theoretic blindtracks shuts down the elementaric insight: Evil doesn't primarely belongs to theology, in nature or societysciences, barely in philosophy, but in a concrete moral and politic area. We cannot understand and fight evil as long as we realize it as something abstract and unfamiliar.
In theology, closer: theodiée, one try and save the imagianation of a God, an allmighty God, but this rescue try happens almost without exception on the expense on the acnowledgement of the reality of evil, easily with that everything is "really" good, or is transformed to something good, in a divine perspective - and this is to explain away the reality of evil. We shall not reconcile with the evil, but try doing something about it. It's partly why I mean all theodicées are of the evil, because they in height can contribute to such an reconcilement.
The real question isn't "What is the evil?" but "How do we do evil?"
The answer is that we does it because of several reasons. A human can have several different motifs for doing evil. But it doesn't do evil 'because' it's evil, and this form of evil, the demonic evil, should turned down as a myth. Meanwhile it's the demonic evil who often represents the nature of evil. The problem with looking at demonic evil as the essential evil is that then the evil becomes unfamiliar/unknown for us - it's really not how we realize ourself anyhow. The problem with the focus on the demonic evil is not theoretic, but practical, because it shuts out our own insight in what potential each and one of us has for doing evil.
Sometimes, we do the evil, well known that we are doing evil, because doing so helps us subjectivly. The instrumentally evil has understood what is evil and good, but choose to put away the good because of consideration of self. This instrumental evil is only a part of the evil actions we do though. We also have idealistic and stupidity evil, were a actor either is motivated by an conviction of objectiv good, or doesn't reflect upon good or evil at all. Nobody is beyond evil.
We have all done evil in the mentioned categories, even if we haven't acnowlidged these actions as evil. The most of us has done evil in small terms, but each one of us could have done it in big terms. The evil isn't just 'the others', but also 'us' .
The human kinds biggest problem isn't that much an overflow of agression as it is an lack of reflection. This lack leads us to join in the most insane abuses on the next guy/girl. The egoism lies the reasons for far less murders and abuses than the unreflected, nonsubjectivly devotion to an 'higher' cause. And the indifference demands even more victims - not the least to people that isn't close to us. The indifference doesn't just show in acts of violence and so on, but equal terms into the fact that 1.2 billion people lives in utter poordom, and that millions of people dies of hunger each year.
The evil isn't a superior problem, but uncounted concrete problems - situations where we are put to the test as free, reflected and acting entities. I started this book by stating it's easier to do evil than good.
The final question is really just what we choose to 'do'.
 
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