so what's with this notion part ll

[WarriorAngel]

Fr. Seraphim Rose was an Eastern Orthodox who was formerly gay - ie - he no longer saw himself as gay - but as a Christian. He became a Saint of the EO.

JUST as you could become a Saint of CC...if you want to.

 

[isshinwhat]

Seraphim Rose - OrthodoxWiki

 

[isshinwhat]

Perhaps that pittance I throw in the plate and the miniscule prayers I say help in some small way. In the way that a subatomic particle contributes to an atom which contributes to a molecule which contributes to a cell which contributes to an organ which contributes to a body. Not even noticeable.

I was cutting lemons with one of the sisters from the Missionaries of Charity and she said, "The juice burns doesn't it? Every pang, though, is a penance for a soul in Purgatory." I thought that was beautiful. Your struggles have value...

Time for work. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Fr. Seraphim Rose was an Eastern Orthodox who was formerly gay - ie - he no longer saw himself as gay - but as a Christian. He became a Saint of the EO.

From what I've read (and I did check), he's not even been beatified by any Orthodox Synod.

That he's being held up for sainthood by the faithful speaks well. Subito santo, I suppose.

JUST as you could become a Saint of CC...if you want to.

Well, if I ended up a saint, I would most likely never be beatified or canonized in the Catholic Church. Just one more unknown hidden God. I suppose that's supposed to be better anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

You insist forcibly that they remain as homosexuals and not humans who are Christian and God centered.

I suggest i dont have the issue - it seems you want them to hold onto labels such as homosexual rather than letting them just be saints..

I think it is a shame that our culture wants people to who are same sex attracted to define who they are as people based upon that one facet of their life. .

This sounds good, but it's a load of hypocritical tripe. Just try suggesting Saint Paul was gay or Saint Francis was. Hey, Jesus could have been gay from what you both said.

We all define ourselves PRIMARILY by our gender orientation. Want to make a straight guy mad? Attack his masculinity. Want to sell your product to a woman? Suggest it makes her more feminine and desirable ... to men.

I don't know what point y'all think you are proving, but the idea that you aren't as thoroughly steeped in your own gender-identity as anyone else, is simply evidence that you think a gay person is "abnormal" because your are so wedded to your own you don't even think about it.

You don't have to.

No one wants to kill you for being straight. No one has long contentious stupid threads in Christian forums about being straight.

If what you said were true, the Church wouldn't have special teachings about homosexuality. It defined Sacramental marriage and chastity, what more needs to be said? Love one another. Jesus said that a long time ago.

Did we need something else? I guess we do. We need it not because there is something wrong with gay folks, but because we are all so intrinsically disordered we can't figure out what Jesus meant by those three simple words: "Love one another."

Just look at "Warrior Angel's" sig cartoon - just can't live without labeling people. Protesters are all --- what? Worthless lazy welfare bums? Easier than understanding the issue or speaking to some, or reading a few bills that have passed or watching something that explains the recession in terms of the volume of money that was withdrawn from circulation by the big banks they are protesting against.

Let's just slap a label on some folks and decide we are the good guys and they are the bad guys. So pretending in the same post that gee, gosh, golly, why do we have to be confronted with the icky gayness, just be a Christian and DON'T TELL = serious hypocrisy ITT.

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

Matthew was no longer a tax collector - he became an Apostle.
The publicans became disciples.

Oh yeah, that's exactly the same as being gay.

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

Fr. Seraphim Rose was an Eastern Orthodox who was formerly gay - ie - he no longer saw himself as gay - but as a Christian. He became a Saint of the EO.

JUST as you could become a Saint of CC...if you want to.

No such thing as a Saint "of EO" or "of RCC." There are no denominations, or genders for that matter, in Heaven.

 

[isshinwhat]

I don't know what point y'all think you are proving, but the idea that you aren't as thoroughly steeped in your own gender-identity as anyone else, is simply evidence that you think a gay person is "abnormal" because your are so wedded to your own you don't even think about it.

It is not abnormal inasmuch as we are all drawn to sin; however, same sex attraction is a disordered passion that is a result of the Fall, and therefore must be worked against. That's it. As for your comparison to heterosexual identity, heterosexual attraction is not disordered, though acting on it can be, therein lies the difference. If someone based their identity on how many women they could pick up, I would find that sad, as well, because much of that person's identity would be based upon a sinful inclination. Again, through our union with Christ we can escape the corruption that is in the world. That is the very root of the Gospel message; sanctification and union with God where there once was separation.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It is not abnormal inasmuch as we are all drawn to sin; however, same sex attraction is a disordered passion that is a result of the Fall, and therefore must be worked against. That's it. As for your comparison to heterosexual identity, heterosexual attraction is not disordered, though acting on it can be, therein lies the difference. If someone based their identity on how many women they could pick up, I would find that sad, as well, because much of that person's identity would be based upon a sinful inclination. Again, through our union with Christ we can escape the corruption that is in the world. That is the very root of the Gospel message; sanctification and union with God where there once was separation.

Ephesians 4:24
And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth.


Colossians 3:10
And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him.


Mark 2:21
No man seweth a piece of raw cloth to an old garment: otherwise the new piecing taketh away from the old, and there is made a greater rent.


18Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh in its concupiscences.




19Ephesians 6:11
Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.



Final conclusion - put away sin, leave it in the past and put God in your heart and live for Him alone....resist the sins from the fall and see yourself as the NEW person living in Christ.

 

[benedictaoo]

Bene, stop talking to me like I'm an idiot kid. My godson, my brother-in-law, struggles with same sex attraction. I have had many late might conversations with the kid (he's 19). He's cried on my shoulder and I have been an open ear many times, and I pray he continues to feel comfortable talking to me throughout his life. I love him and hate to see him struggle.

As for denying who you are, I refuse to identify someone based upon their temptations. No one is gay because they are tempted, no one is an adulterer because they are tempted, no one is a murderer because they are tempted, no one is a drunkard because they are tempted. If we fall, we get up again... Denying ourselves and our disordered passions, it's what we are called to do.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

He struggles with same sex attraction...

Do you struggle with opposite sex attraction or is it natural as breathing is?

why do you say they struggle with it? they don't struggle with it, its who they are and that's the crux. They are homosexual and they are being asked to be something they are not. They are not attracted to the opposite sex. Their struggle is having us accept this. The struggle is not fighting their attractions, but remaining celibate.

It would be pointless for a homosexual to fight it... they will not win the fight anymore then you would win trying to be gay when you are straight.

They just need to not have sex just as we, the straight people can't have it either... they should not have to fight being attracted to who they are attracted to and we need to accept them for who and what they are. I clearly see WA not doing that.

and what they struggle with is the fact that society hates them, God hates them, and if they don't want to be ostracisized, they need to stay in a closet.

so, don't get me wrong. I get its a sin to be with a person of the same sex as you... however. it really must suck to be them.

They have enough to deal with, they really do not need us to tell them about themselves as if we have a clue what it must be like. we don't know the first thing about this. All we know is what is a sin and what is not.

 

[benedictaoo]

This sounds good, but it's a load of hypocritical tripe. Just try suggesting Saint Paul was gay or Saint Francis was. Hey, Jesus could have been gay from what you both said.

We all define ourselves PRIMARILY by our gender orientation. Want to make a straight guy mad? Attack his masculinity. Want to sell your product to a woman? Suggest it makes her more feminine and desirable ... to men.

I don't know what point y'all think you are proving, but the idea that you aren't as thoroughly steeped in your own gender-identity as anyone else, is simply evidence that you think a gay person is "abnormal" because your are so wedded to your own you don't even think about it.

You don't have to.

No one wants to kill you for being straight. No one has long contentious stupid threads in Christian forums about being straight.

If what you said were true, the Church wouldn't have special teachings about homosexuality. It defined Sacramental marriage and chastity, what more needs to be said? Love one another. Jesus said that a long time ago.

Did we need something else? I guess we do. We need it not because there is something wrong with gay folks, but because we are all so intrinsically disordered we can't figure out what Jesus meant by those three simple words: "Love one another."

Just look at "Warrior Angel's" sig cartoon - just can't live without labeling people. Protesters are all --- what? Worthless lazy welfare bums? Easier than understanding the issue or speaking to some, or reading a few bills that have passed or watching something that explains the recession in terms of the volume of money that was withdrawn from circulation by the big banks they are protesting against.

Let's just slap a label on some folks and decide we are the good guys and they are the bad guys. So pretending in the same post that gee, gosh, golly, why do we have to be confronted with the icky gayness, just be a Christian and DON'T TELL = serious hypocrisy ITT.

I agree with everything you said.

 

[benedictaoo]

It is not abnormal inasmuch as we are all drawn to sin; however, same sex attraction is a disordered passion that is a result of the Fall, and therefore must be worked against. That's it. As for your comparison to heterosexual identity, heterosexual attraction is not disordered, though acting on it can be, therein lies the difference. If someone based their identity on how many women they could pick up, I would find that sad, as well, because much of that person's identity would be based upon a sinful inclination. Again, through our union with Christ we can escape the corruption that is in the world. That is the very root of the Gospel message; sanctification and union with God where there once was separation.

This is not theologically correct and here's why I think that...

The passions, technically are emotions. Passions is another name for our emotions, and the fall made our emotions out of balance.

being heterosexual or homosexual is more then an emotion that is out of balance.

Is it a disorder, like a birth defect? who knows, we certainly do not but to say its an emotion is seriously not understanding this.

It more then an emotion like lust is, in that if they try real hard with God's help and the Church and Communion, they can resist the temptation to like other men.

It just doesn't work that way.

A married man being tempted to look at other attractive women is a temptation he must resist and be on guard always.

But him being heterosexual that causes him to be attracted to women in the first place is not a temptation, its just who he is. Its totally normal.

A gay man looking at another man who he finds attractive... what would you say that is? In his world, its totally normal.

What his temptation would be is not acting on it and where the break down comes in with us is, if the married man where single and he meet a woman he found attractive, he could act on it... meaning, he can meet the women and get to know her.

A gay guy, he can't even do that because, why? why would he even bother when it can't go any further then "hello"?

So that's their struggle. It's so much more then just an emotion that is out of whack.

 

[benedictaoo]

No such thing as a Saint "of EO" or "of RCC." There are no denominations, or genders for that matter, in Heaven.

even labeling the Saints... lol.

 

[isshinwhat]

They are not attracted to the opposite sex. Their struggle is having us accept this. The struggle is not fighting their attractions, but remaining celibate.

That is what I meant by saying he struggles with same sex attraction. Being that they are people, as different and unique as you and I, we cannot make blanket statements about what the future holds for any individual; some formerly married heterosexual men now identify as homosexual, and vice-versa. Some who experienced same sex attraction are now married and state they no longer are tempted, while some barely manage to live chaste lives and others fall flat on their faces. We are all unique people, and each of us experiences our particular struggles in our own way, common as those struggles may be. What is important is that when we fall flat, we try to fall flat at the foot of the Cross. That is why I hate labeling people. Some people are relieved of their temptations, others not at all, and there lies everyone in between, too... My job is to try to help everyone who is in the Barque, and try to bring those not there into Her. Sin condemns, sin creates struggles-pain-doubt-and hopelessness. People don't need me adding to that...

 

[benedictaoo]

I think you re just splitting hairs here. They are gay. Period. They are gay and they do not have to hide it. We have to stop thinking to be gay in society is to be the anti Christ.

what they have to do, like you and me, is just be chaste in what ever it is they are called to.

If they choose to marry a women because they can't be priests anymore thanks to Benedict scape goating them with the sex abuse of kids, if they don't want to be alone, and want to have some kids, we should be at a pleace where they can be open and frank about it with who they marry, and not hide it nor should they go out and get a G/F or a wife just to cover up their gayness from us.

we have to accept them and we are not at a place where we do.

We need to get over this notion that we should not have to look at them.

 

[isshinwhat]

I think you re just splitting hairs here. They are gay. Period. They are gay and they do not have to hide it. We have to stop thinking to be gay in society is to be the anti Christ.

I'm not splitting hairs, I just feel it is not right to tie someone that closely to a sinful inclination. I don't call women who used to sleep around harlots, I don't call men who cheated on their wives adulterers, I don't call people in prison who have paid their debt and moved on murderers and thieves, even if they are still tempted to fornicate, steal, or cheat. I refuse to see them through the lens of of one disordered inclination. It's that simple.

 

[benedictaoo]

But SSA is not a sin inclination... the CCC says so... its who they are... men and women who like other men and women.

the sex would be the sin and a relationship is discouraged because it can't lead to sex because the sex can not produce children which is why they can not be allowed to marry.

They can have friendships though and live like two brothers or two sisters.

We need to accept this.

we need to seriously put this into perspective, for their sake because some live tortured lives and we have to stop doing this to them.

 

[isshinwhat]

By sinful inclination I mean an inclination to sin, not that the inclination itself is sinful. Off to Mass. I'll try to post afterwards. Enjoy your Sunday

 

[benedictaoo]

Being born attracted to the same sex as you is not a "sin inclination". Its who they are.

Disordered? yeah, but they are BORN this way and can not HELP being this way.

Is it a defect of birth? We. do. not. know.

But just as the boy born with no legs is not the way God wanted him to be, neither is being born with SSA. It may not be right but its not a sin.

The inclination to sin would be a inclination to want to sexually be with a person they are attracted to.

and this is what makes us more alike then different. Our sin inclination is the same, in so much as we can't go and have sex with who ever we want.

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

some formerly married heterosexual men now identify as homosexual, and vice-versa.

As long as you have certain non-factual beliefs about this topic, there's no way to communicate clearly, I don't think.

There are no men that were heterosexuals and married who stopped being heterosexual and became homosexual. There were and probably still are, gay mean and women who were in denial about themselves because society considers their existence "disordered" who tried to make the life society expected. Finally, instead of living a lie forever, they managed to deal with themselves and others more honestly.

I'm not splitting hairs, I just feel it is not right to tie someone that closely to a sinful inclination.

Being gay is no more a sinful inclination than being straight is. Straight people want to have sex regardless of their marital status. But deciding to choose chastity in and out of marriage doesn't make them not heterosexual. And being attracted to someone sexually isn't all that makes one heterosexual, it's also about the kind of person you form your primary emotional bond with. Being straight means you usually do that with someone of the opposite sex.

Being gay is not a "sinful inclination" in any way more than being straight is. The Church simply removed the option of having what we actually regard as a normal ordered life and requires them to live what is actually an abnormal disordered one, not making any primary emotional bond or forming an adult family.

Now, for your comfort, you want them to all pretend they aren't what they are and aren't suffering at all? That's what I hear you saying.