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OBJECTION!
Assumes facts not in evidence.
'Lord, I beseech thee, give me these sufferings: they belong to me: I have deserved them in punishment for my sins.
~ Emmerich
At the day of judgment, when the most hidden things will be manifested, we shall see the share we have had in the torments endured by the Son of God; we shall see how far we have caused them by the sins we so frequently commit, and which are, in fact, a species of consent which we give to, and a participation in, the tortures which were inflicted on Jesus by his cruel enemies. If, alas! we reflected seriously on this, we should repeat with much greater fervour the words which we find so often in prayer-books: Lord, grant that I may die, rather than ever wilfully offend thee again by sin.
~ Emmerich
Visions of a Stigmatist - and her sentiments certainly make us all look rather awkward.
Are you suggesting the teachings of the Church are in error?
Where has anyone implied anything to the contrary?OSAS - is against Catholic teaching. WE can lose salvation.
That has been the teachings since forever.
IF we are OVER confident but go out and sin, as Hebrews 6 suggests we can, we make a mockery of the Lord.
Are you denying the TEACHINGS of the Church?
Yes or no?
Thank you. Here's the passage:
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward.
Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
Matthew 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men.
1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.
Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, and cast away himself?
Hebrews 6:
http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=65&ch=6&l=5#x [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.
1 Corinthians 9:24
Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.
NOT a fan of OSAS.
No, I am saying that YOU are ASSUMING facts not in evidence.
Where has anyone implied anything to the contrary?
Or are you confusing the love of God with salvation? God's love is not contingent, salvation is.
1 John 4:
[16] And we have known, and have believed the charity, which God hath to us. God is charity: and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him. [17] In this is the charity of God perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment: because as he is, we also are in this world. [18] Fear is not in charity: but perfect charity casteth out fear, because fear hath pain. And he that feareth, is not perfected in charity. [19] Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. [20] If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?
To suggest someone must stay within the worldly parameters of some study - 'being afraid' - without context of the scriptures and to castigate the Saints writings she saw through the Lord and mock those who show them, suggests a lot without assumption, but evidence.
God's love was not in question - but what the Saint wrote was we will see what we did to cause the pain and suffering of the Lord in His Passion.
WE will see our own part in it... and she said let me die rather than sin again - because she saw the brutality of which He - the Innocent - received for our sins.
Let us not take for granted the punches, the beatings, the spitting, the whippings, the nails, the crown, the humility and the atrocious brutality of which He received.
WE are reminded - we all took part in that - and the more we sin, the more we take credit thereof.
Perhaps a clarification is in order.
I don't believe that all conservatives are arrogant, rude and self-righteous (some are...and may God help those of us who are sometimes arrogant, rude and self-righteous, conservative or not). If I left that impression, I'm sorry.
To suggest someone must stay within the worldly parameters of some study - 'being afraid' -
He loves us and wants for all of us to be saved. The only ones I know who argue with this are the Calvin people.
In Catholicism, it's called Jansenism. It's a vile heresy that destroys hope in the love and mercy of God.
Come on now.. talk yourself of the ledge... Don't jump.
neither NG or myself is saying anything outrageous that you need to disagree with.
God is love and loves us all, why do you think he wants to save the poor sinners? why do you think He calls them "poor" sinners and not dreaded hated sinners?
He loves us and wants for all of us to be saved. The only ones I know who argue with this are the Calvin people.
benedictaoo said:and perfect love casts out all fear. When we come to really know and embrace God's perfect love for us, we no longer fear Him because we know He loves us and we can trust that.
and God loves us just how we are right now.. no requirement to be this or that- He loves us no string attached. Yes He loves us too much to leave us in a bad way and will try to convince us to change, but He loves us just the way we are. NOT, IF we change, THEN He will love us.
Why did you attack me via the Saints writings?
If it not about the message, what is it?
No one said anything about God's love. You did. Out of context to what the Saint was sayng about our judgment, you said we are not to fear such a thing because of God's love.
That is too close to OSAS...because evidently, Hebrews 6 disagrees.
Taking HIS love out of context - which is not the issue. Everyone knows God loves - without restraint.
But that does NOT mean everyone is going to Heaven.
That does not mean we do not fear our judgment or His Justice.
That does not mean - we will not see our part in His Passion and crucifixion.
IT does not mean those who understand we must HAVE FULL RESTRAINT how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ - including and not limited to gossiping and smearing their good name... will automatically be given salvation.
IF Christ said - sin no more - HE meant and means - SIN NO MORE.
AND that is the point - how we relate to God's graces.
AND it is in fact 'IF' we change we merit the rewards of Heaven.
If we do not NEED TO change - then why did Christ state we must sin no more?
WE must fear and tremble to work out our salvation.
When i postPlease stop hitting the return key so many times between lines. Thanks.
Look - the Saint has a great lesson in her writing this for us.Of course, we must fear the possibility of hell, but that's a starting point, not the whole picture. It's sort of like the protestant error of failing to recognize that justification by faith is a starting point, not the whole picture. Fear leads to attrition and it's enough to get one's sins forgiven in confession.
One can grow in holiness and love of God. This is what is meant by faith working in love. I don't see faith working in fear being taught by the Church. Yes, we must fear the possibility that we can sin and lose God, but something tells me that fear alone isn't the best way. A person who loves God so much that they they don't want to offend him and damage their relationship in God isn't motivated by fear but love.
BTW, you got it backwards, we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. See above on how that's supposed to work. Your way seems to say that we must live in a constant state of anxiety and terror that we're going to burn in hell. Where's the confidence in the love and mercy of God?
And let's not forget that it's called the Gospel, the Good News. With all this talk of fear and nothing else, it seems more like the Bad News.
When i post
i am
writing
in paragraph form
so it seems like a
whole paragraph
is written before
i am hitting the
next
paragraph
even if it
comes out
more like a sentence
which CC does the same.
Lets not start nit picking
or it would lose
the point of the
message.
Oops - did i hit the return key a lot?My bad.
If that's it, okay. I prefer to try to be motivated by love rather than fear.Look - the Saint has a great lesson in her writing this for us.
IF we KNOW we will see the harsh brutal pounding we took part in - in His Passion - we will refrain from sin.
It was that simple.
AND when we think and ponder on how hard He took such a beating for us personally - we will TRY to refrain from sin.
That's all the message was about.
Argue about it all you like - or rather take time to think about it - work it out on your own.
Peace.
Why did you attack me via the Saints writings?
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