so what's with this notion part ll

[benedictaoo]

but IMO, I think she totally flips out... case in point, I said a gay actor from the UK is attractive and she went out of her way to insult him... like, who does that?

that's flipping out, IMO...

calling Ellen Degeneres, (sp?) "a degenerate" is flipping out, IMO and just not nice, IMO.

But what ever. I don't care. I just know this is not what I want to emulate.

 

[benedictaoo]

I also got a good giggle from how you put it, which is exactly what it seems like when i see the argument we ought to accept that they are this way and they ought to embrace it.

I am hearing over and over that they dont need to let it go - but everyone should accept it.

AND yet i dont see the same argument for other sins....

Its true - we dont tell ppl 'Look you are a fornicator, accept it and identify yuourself as one....'
or an adulterer for that matter.

I wonder if Bene's husband was an adulterer and slept with women behind her back if she would give him the same speech.
Why wouldnt she?
I mean a sin is a sin and we cannot change who we are....right?

The argument is excusing the sinner to keep going on the same track without letting it go and moving on as Christ would want us.

The Our Father says as it is in Heaven.
Christ said therte is no marrying or giving in marriage in heaven - ie we will not be sexual creatures.

Bringing up a married person - and saying as i was told it is easy for me to say because i am married - well marriage isnt easy - and secondly i bear other crosses. And thirdly - i took on marriage because it is God ordained to do so.

I would have preferred to fornicate and leave when i grew tired of him. BUT i am stuck for life with him... and if someone thinks thats easy - they have no idea. Its not even about sex...there comea a point fo being so over it. Then the hard work comes in...chosing to love - chosing to work on it.

Its not all about whoopie i can have sex..... thats the last thing on the list after you have to work work work on constantly getting it right in the marriage.
There are a few lucky docks who do it in sync every time. Then there are those who bear crosses.

If I said I really read this post slowly, I'd be lying. I don't lie. I really did not really read this but the bit about my husband did catch my eye.

Look, you must really be mad to try to go there with me on a personal level.

THIS IS NOT PERSONAL an you need an intervention because you are carried away.

look at Neil, I can have a rational conversation with him because he is not emotional and carried away, neither am I, but you are... why? How come?

You want me to talk about your husband and play what if scenarios? You want me to go there? Cuz I can... you don't even know...

It can get nasty like you, just tell me how nasty you want to take it?

let me let you know one thing... my husband LOVES me and not too many women can say their husband loves them like the way mine loves me. He has never be unfaithful to me nor I him... and he has never-- WOULD never ask me to do anything my faith taught against or he would leave me or be unfaithful to me. NOt something I have to worry about. Got That?

LEAVE the personal stuff out of it.

 

[isshinwhat]

I didn't question her use of the bible, just how she jumps from a to z with her own interpretation.

It wasn't you, Michelle, it was FS... Who just did it again...

I'm gone for the weekend, hope you have a good one.

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

but IMO, I think she totally flips out... case in point, I said a gay actor from the UK is attractive and she went out of her way to insult him... like, who does that?

People who are afraid. I read something a while ago that really hit me because I think it's a road I need to get much further down:

"It's a very long way from hating evil to loving good."

Some see being gay as evil. You and I seem to see what we perceive as bigotry as evil. I think we are all too far from loving the good.

I also think you and I and people more like us are less afraid. I really don't think much about hell because I'm not going. The Church says we put ourselves there and I believe that and I'm not going because I want to be with God in Light and Joy. I can't think of anything I wouldn't forgive my child. God is the only true good, Jesus - unimaginably better than I am.

What will He not forgive me?

But people are afraid. And mad. Like the Prodigal son's older brother. He did everything right so he'd get his inheritance by pleasing his father. The Prodigal did everything wrong, and he still got to come home and have a big party.

Gay folks are going to be in heaven, too. Even the married ones.

And Ellen DeGeneres is cute as a button. Always want to give her a big hug and a cookie.

 

[FranciscanSpirit]

I also got a good giggle from how you put it, which is exactly what it seems like when i see the argument we ought to accept that they are this way and they ought to embrace it.

I am hearing over and over that they dont need to let it go - but everyone should accept it.

AND yet i dont see the same argument for other sins....

Being gay is not a sin. How is this not accepted by you since you claim the 'faithful Catholic" high ground around here?

Being gay is not a sin.

The Church says so. Let's try it one more time: BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN.

The argument is excusing the sinner to keep going on the same track without letting it go and moving on as Christ would want us.

I didn't know you had the inside track on what Christ would want in this area. Let's see, He said: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.

He said: GOD WANTS MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE.

He said: FEED THE HUNGRY, VISIT THE IMPRISONED.

Where's the part where He said whatever you think He said?

The Our Father says as it is in Heaven.
Christ said therte is no marrying or giving in marriage in heaven - ie we will not be sexual creatures.... i took on marriage because it is God ordained to do so.

Wait. What? So this should be like Heaven because God said so and in Heaven there are no genders or marriage and you are married because...God said so? I thought God wanted us to be like in Heaven which means no marriage?

If God can "ordain" you to be married even though that isn't like it is in Heaven, why can't he ordain gay people to be married, too?

I would have preferred to fornicate and leave when i grew tired of him.

Wow, really? Maybe you wouldn't have gotten so tired of him if you thought of sexual intimacy as something other than FORNICATING.

BUT i am stuck for life with him...

So now you're just mad because gay people are having all the great sex without the burden of marriage and you are stuck with a pot-bellied stogie-sucker?

Its not all about whoopie i can have sex....

They are JUST LIKE YOU - except not so bitter. They love each other as straight folks do, they have homes and jobs and take vacations and mow their lawns and have family dinners and squabbles and - how on earth did you decide it was all about a series of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

They also get mad, fall out of love, break up and find other relationships. Just like straight folks do.

Then there are those who bear crosses.

I used to live next door to a woman like you. Really miserable human being. Stuck it out for 35 years. Then he left. He had two women on the hook. Yeah, they were Catholic. Know what? If he leaves, you can't stop him from divorcing you. He might want more for himself than to be married to the martyr of the century. This neighbor did. Know what else? She is WAY happier now. Which I told her she would be.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

From what I can tell...

Warrior Angel has only stated that acting on homosexual desires is a sin. Nothing that the CCC has not already stated. I do not recall her ever saying that being of a SSA is a sin, only that with spiritual growth someone with SSA would likely move above such earthly things as lust or sexual attractions like this. Again, I see nothing contrary to what the CCC teaches in this regard either.

 

[benedictaoo]

People who are afraid. I read something a while ago that really hit me because I think it's a road I need to get much further down:

"It's a very long way from hating evil to loving good."

Some see being gay as evil. You and I seem to see what we perceive as bigotry as evil. I think we are all too far from loving the good.

I also think you and I and people more like us are less afraid. I really don't think much about hell because I'm not going. The Church says we put ourselves there and I believe that and I'm not going because I want to be with God in Light and Joy. I can't think of anything I wouldn't forgive my child. God is the only true good, Jesus - unimaginably better than I am.

What will He not forgive me?

But people are afraid. And mad. Like the Prodigal son's older brother. He did everything right so he'd get his inheritance by pleasing his father. The Prodigal did everything wrong, and he still got to come home and have a big party.

Gay folks are going to be in heaven, too. Even the married ones.

And Ellen DeGeneres is cute as a button. Always want to give her a big hug and a cookie.

yeah, that is how I feel about it. I'm not afraid of hell because I know the Lord knows I'm just trying to work out all this junk- trying to gain the correct perspective. I been up, I been down, I been hard, I been soft and I'm just trying to work it all out. I don't fear hell because my hope is in Christ.

anyway... with that said, we can't presume either. I don't know about gays, what happens to them but its really not my call, now is it? whats me hatin on them gonna change? not a whole lot...

and Ellen is funny as heck and I can say that and not have to turn the channel every time she's on because I'm a hater. and she is from my area. Literally. One of my kids went to the same high school as she. her mother lives here in the suburbs.

There's just nothing in for me to be hatin on gays and lesbians unless not hatin' on them is a sin of grave matter... and it would be a stretch for anyone to say it is.

Am I gonna hate on the woman who lives with her B/F who's Catholic and who says he's her husband when he really isn't?

I wish ppl would not sin and live right but I can't be hatin on them or discriminate against them by catching and attitude with them just because they don't.

 

[benedictaoo]

Being gay is not a sin. How is this not accepted by you since you claim the 'faithful Catholic" high ground around here?

Being gay is not a sin.

The Church says so. Let's try it one more time: BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN.


I didn't know you had the inside track on what Christ would want in this area. Let's see, He said: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.

He said: GOD WANTS MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE.

He said: FEED THE HUNGRY, VISIT THE IMPRISONED.

Where's the part where He said whatever you think He said?



Wait. What? So this should be like Heaven because God said so and in Heaven there are no genders or marriage and you are married because...God said so? I thought God wanted us to be like in Heaven which means no marriage?

If God can "ordain" you to be married even though that isn't like it is in Heaven, why can't he ordain gay people to be married, too?



Wow, really? Maybe you wouldn't have gotten so tired of him if you thought of sexual intimacy as something other than FORNICATING.



So now you're just mad because gay people are having all the great sex without the burden of marriage and you are stuck with a pot-bellied stogie-sucker?



They are JUST LIKE YOU - except not so bitter. They love each other as straight folks do, they have homes and jobs and take vacations and mow their lawns and have family dinners and squabbles and - how on earth did you decide it was all about a series of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

They also get mad, fall out of love, break up and find other relationships. Just like straight folks do.



I used to live next door to a woman like you. Really miserable human being. Stuck it out for 35 years. Then he left. He had two women on the hook. Yeah, they were Catholic. Know what? If he leaves, you can't stop him from divorcing you. He might want more for himself than to be married to the martyr of the century. This neighbor did. Know what else? She is WAY happier now. Which I told her she would be.

the road to hell is paved with happy people. lol.

well I have to say, objectively speaking, God does not ordain gay marriages and to have sex outside of marriage is fornicating. That's not to say you can not truly be in love with the person you have sex with outside of marriage, but objectively, it is a sin to.

and because sex is for marriage and sex is for making babies, gays can't get married because them having sex can't make babies so that's why they can't marry.

Its not because they are just gross freaks of disordered passions nature... that is what WA needs to understand, IMO.

The Church' reasons for saying they can not marry is not HER reasons for saying that. Its simply because the sex does not produce children.

She seriously is preaching something to me I already know and accusing me of embracing sin and it is P me O.

Yes, I agree she has all these inordinate fears of hell and has an obvious problem with gay people but I don't disagree what sin is but I'm just trying to get her to acknowledge gay ppl are/were born to every generation there is/was. It is what it is and its not a sin to have a SSA, its a sin to live a sexual lifestyle.

They have to play by the same rules as us and IMO they are no more worse for wear then what we are but I do think they have a much better culpability factor and a much harder go at this then we do- so to whom much is given, much is expected... from us... perhaps, I dunno- I just know I do not envy a gay person because they can't take a desire to want to share their life with another person and make it all right in God's eyes.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If I said I really read this post slowly, I'd be lying. I don't lie. I really did not really read this but the bit about my husband did catch my eye.

Look, you must really be mad to try to go there with me on a personal level.

THIS IS NOT PERSONAL an you need an intervention because you are carried away.

look at Neil, I can have a rational conversation with him because he is not emotional and carried away, neither am I, but you are... why? How come?

You want me to talk about your husband and play what if scenarios? You want me to go there? Cuz I can... you don't even know...

It can get nasty like you, just tell me how nasty you want to take it?

let me let you know one thing... my husband LOVES me and not too many women can say their husband loves them like the way mine loves me. He has never be unfaithful to me nor I him... and he has never-- WOULD never ask me to do anything my faith taught against or he would leave me or be unfaithful to me. NOt something I have to worry about. Got That?

LEAVE the personal stuff out of it.

So in other words - it depends on the mortal sin - if it is really bad or not?

 

[WarriorAngel]

From what I can tell...

Warrior Angel has only stated that acting on homosexual desires is a sin. Nothing that the CCC has not already stated. I do not recall her ever saying that being of a SSA is a sin, only that with spiritual growth someone with SSA would likely move above such earthly things as lust or sexual attractions like this. Again, I see nothing contrary to what the CCC teaches in this regard either.

Thanks - yep thats what i say...in a variety of ways.

 

[brewmama]

Perhaps a clarification is in order.

I don't believe that all conservatives are arrogant, rude and self-righteous (some are...and may God help those of us who are sometimes arrogant, rude and self-righteous, conservative or not). If I left that impression, I'm sorry.

What I do mean to say is that people who operate out of their primitive lizard brain tend to be conservative.Let me explain using set theory. You can generally divide a group of people into liberal and conservative. Then you can generally divide the same group of people based on whether or not they operate out of their primitive lizard brain. The two criteria (politics and primitive-lizard braininess) can be analyzed independently (as shown in the study the article discusses) and the intersects show that those who do operate out of their primitive-lizard brain tend to be conservative. There are people who are conservative and do not operate out of their primitive lizard brain and vice versa.

I am a non-conservative who, unfortunately, is primitive-lizard brainy.

Interestingly, this was played with a lot of hoopla among liberals on their blogs and HuffPost.

Here's a link to the story and a preview:
To be honest, I suffer from great fear and anxiety and am hardly ever optimistic. If you've read what I think of having the gayness and how it makes my life unbearable (want time machine to go back and stop my conception: no existence, no threat of hell), you know that I'm being honest here.

I'm not conservative though. I'm more of a liberal on economic issues and a Catholic on social issues. I don't buy the Republicans line on the social issues for a lot of reasons. I can sense when things aren't kosher and lately, the Republicans are so far from kosher, they might as well be shrimp or lobster (I don't dare say pork), but don't worry, the Democrats couldn't kasher themselves if they tried.

What hogwash!

How do you explain those of us who were liberal in our blithe,ignorant youth, and embraced conservatism when we matured, joined the Church and became acquainted with the Truth?

 

[benedictaoo]

So in other words - it depends on the mortal sin - if it is really bad or not?

what are you talking about?

It depends on you not trying to P me off when you claim the moral high ground WA.

that is what it depends on. It depends on you getting out of your own way to see how you look to others, clearly as a person who can not separate the sin from the sinner.

Clearly.

and it depends on how you reject out of hand what the Catholic Church teaches about it.

The Catholic Church TEACHES that to have a SSA is not a sin nor are these people to be discriminated against by us for having a SSA.

If you posted with such passion and contempt towards all sinners, the heterosexual sinners as you do the homosexual ones, but you don't and you cant see it. You just can't see how bigoted you look and you give some of us the same feelings towards you that you have towards the gays.

You can at least admit the gays make you sick but you would be offended if someone said to you that you make them sick and you just can not see this.

Let me explain this to you, WA... you do not get to send me to hell. You do not get to judge my soul for the better or the worse. You are not the one who gets to make this call. Not for me, or the "gays" nor anyone... u do know this, right?

 

[brewmama]

what are you talking about?

It depends on you not trying to P me off when you claim the moral high ground WA.

that is what it depends on. It depends on you getting out of your own way to see how you look to others, clearly as a person who can not separate the sin from the sinner.

Clearly.

and it depends on how you reject out of hand what the Catholic Church teaches about it.

The Catholic Church TEACHES that to have a SSA is not a sin nor are these people to be discriminated against by us for having a SSA.

If you posted with such passion and contempt towards all sinners, the heterosexual sinners as you do the homosexual ones, but you don't and you cant see it. You just can't see how bigoted you look and you give some of us the same feelings towards you that you have towards the gays.

You can at least admit the gays make you sick but you would be offended if someone said to you that you make them sick and you just can not see this.

Let me explain this to you, WA... you do not get to send me to hell. You do not get to judge my soul for the better or the worse. You are not the one who gets to make this call. Not for me, or the "gays" nor anyone... u do know this, right?

There's a big difference. Heterosexual sinners do not try to force acceptance of their sin on those who think they are wrong, or call their critics heterophobic and hateful. They usually actually agree that what they are doing is a sin, they just don't care. It is not bigoted to react defensively when a clear moral teaching of the church is under assault and made illegal in some places. We are the ones under assault, not them. And I don't think anyone here is "sending you to hell". But openly and aggressively defying the word of God and justifying sin and denouncing anyone who disagrees with you does make one wonder, and perhaps pray for you.

 

[benedictaoo]

There's a big difference. Heterosexual sinners do not try to force acceptance of their sin on those who think they are wrong, or call their critics heterophobic and hateful. They usually actually agree that what they are doing is a sin, they just don't care. It is not bigoted to react defensively when a clear moral teaching of the church is under assault and made illegal in some places. We are the ones under assault, not them. And I don't think anyone here is "sending you to hell". But openly and aggressively defying the word of God and justifying sin and denouncing anyone who disagrees with you does make one wonder, and perhaps pray for you.

and that is an opinion and not what the Church says... I do not have to agree with this because the Church simply does not teach an attitude such as this and I get to still be Catholic... wow, huh?

and if gays were given the same rights as straight ppl, then they would get just as comfortable as the straights.


look, this just boils down to we think our hetero sex sins are nicer then the gay ones but they really aren't. two straight ppl who engage in sodomy is just as sick and perverted and gross as two gay men but for some reason, we think it far worse when two men do it. when two women do it (sex) straight men think that's hot... we are messed up, how we view sex. its a cultural thing.

Some crazy Catholics even think its okay to engage in sodomy if u are married as long as it all ends in regular sex. needless to say i disagree but when we see married ppl, we really don't now what they do. we know what gays do and so we think we have a right to see them as worse and us a better.

we can at least admit that we are conditioned this way. its our world view, what is engaraind and embedded in us. Its not "Church teaching".

 

[JacktheCatholic]

There's a big difference. Heterosexual sinners do not try to force acceptance of their sin on those who think they are wrong, or call their critics heterophobic and hateful. They usually actually agree that what they are doing is a sin, they just don't care. It is not bigoted to react defensively when a clear moral teaching of the church is under assault and made illegal in some places. We are the ones under assault, not them. And I don't think anyone here is "sending you to hell". But openly and aggressively defying the word of God and justifying sin and denouncing anyone who disagrees with you does make one wonder, and perhaps pray for you.

Good post.

 

[brewmama]

and that is an opinion and not what the Church says... I do not have to agree with this because the Church simply does not teach an attitude such as this and I get to still be Catholic... wow, huh?

What are you saying? That homosexual sex is not against Church teaching? That homosexual "marriage" is not against Church teaching? Are you seriously saying that?

and if gays were given the same rights as straight ppl, then they would get just as comfortable as the straights.


look, this just boils down to we think our hetero sex sins are nicer then the gay ones but they really aren't. two straight ppl who engage in sodomy is just as sick and perverted and gross as two gay men but for some reason, we think it far worse when two men do it. when two women do it (sex) straight men think that's hot... we are messed up, how we view sex. its a cultural thing.

Some crazy Catholics even think its okay to engage in sodomy if u are married as long as it all ends in regular sex. needless to say i disagree but when we see married ppl, we really don't now what they do. we know what gays do and so we think we have a right to see them as worse and us a better.

we can at least admit that we are conditioned this way. its our world view, what is engaraind and embedded in us. Its not "Church teaching".

Why do you assume to know what people are thinking? I don't know people who "think" the things you say we think. And I have not heard of any heterosexual married people clamoring to make sodomy a natural accepted practice. Again, it is the homosexual activists trying to force their beliefs and desires on our moral code, that is causing backlash, and not whatever it is they are doing behind closed doors.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Dp

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What are you saying? That homosexual sex is not against Church teaching? That homosexual "marriage" is not against Church teaching? Are you seriously saying that?



Why do you assume to know what people are thinking? I don't know people who "think" the things you say we think. And I have not heard of any heterosexual married people clamoring to make sodomy a natural accepted practice. Again, it is the homosexual activists trying to force their beliefs and desires on our moral code, that is causing backlash, and not whatever it is they are doing behind closed doors.

Crazy huh?

 

[WarriorAngel]

What are you saying? That homosexual sex is not against Church teaching? That homosexual "marriage" is not against Church teaching? Are you seriously saying that?

Thats often how it seems.
Taking a portion of the CCC that we love SSA as tho the Church exonerates the sin of the act.

Try as you might - some cant seem to separate these.

Why do you assume to know what people are thinking? I don't know people who "think" the things you say we think. And I have not heard of any heterosexual married people clamoring to make sodomy a natural accepted practice. Again, it is the homosexual activists trying to force their beliefs and desires on our moral code, that is causing backlash, and not whatever it is they are doing behind closed doors.

Agree.


Bene i was using an analogy.
You lose control it seems - or something - when anyone mentions the act of gays is a sin.
You turn it around over and over again that the Church says.....[etc etc etc] as tho we are all clueless except for you.
Ignoring the important part of what the Church says - the act is a sin - a grave sin.

So anyway - the analogy is if you defend SSA with every fiber in your being - would YOU defend equally the act of a hetero adulterer - and would it feel differently for you if it was your husband - [ALL HYPOTHETICAL] and would it seem like the sin was a horrible offense - or would you equally say 'Get over it, adultery is here to stay...?'

NOW - you admitted you didnt read my post - but you jump all over me without regard to what was said.

I believe a good majority tire of trying to defend themselves against the attacks because somehow some can not bother to read what others are ACTUALLY SAYING.

You said i made it personal when i said i wondered if adultery if it affected you thru your husband - would be treated the same as the gay lifestyle.
OR maybe the second time i inquire - in this post - you will read it - comprehend it...maybe think about it?

We'll see.



Adulterers could be branded with a scarlet letter forever - if you like.
OR maybe just maybe they would change for the Lord.

IS it possible?
ANd if it is possible - are they to be called Christians - converted of heart - or adulterers forever?

There are some who never stop committing adultery - serial adulterers. IS it not a cross to overcome such temptations if they are prone to it...? And are they always going to be called an adulterer if they change due to God?

 

[MikeK]

There's a big difference. Heterosexual sinners do not try to force acceptance of their sin on those who think they are wrong, or call their critics heterophobic and hateful. They usually actually agree that what they are doing is a sin, they just don't care. It is not bigoted to react defensively when a clear moral teaching of the church is under assault and made illegal in some places. We are the ones under assault, not them. And I don't think anyone here is "sending you to hell". But openly and aggressively defying the word of God and justifying sin and denouncing anyone who disagrees with you does make one wonder, and perhaps pray for you.

The reason that we aren't under as great an attack by heterosexual sinners is because we ignore them. We don't object to the government recognizing such shams as marriages after divorce without annulment, marriages of convenience, marriages which are not open to life, etc. If we actively tried to keep the government from recorganizing their marriages, they would take the track of being hostile to us too, rather than their current path of merely pointing and laughing. We don't campaign to keep hospitals from performing sterilizations, we don't campaign to keep our government from providing contraceptives to its servicemen and women, we just oppose the gays who want to marry. I suspect they'd have a greater respect for us if we were a little more consistent.