So what's the US doing?

[renniks]

Comparisons like this between military engagements and people having a few guns at home are just daft. The defence forces and other volunteers fighting alongside Ukrainian regular forces were armed and trained by their own government, and they are fighting the representatives of another state that has invaded their country, using high-powered modern weaponry, not just some collection of handguns and semi-automatic weapons. This notion that having a gun at home would somehow prevent a military takeover is ludicrous, not only because it would be not a lot different to bringing a knife to a gunfight, but because the inverse of the feared takeover scenario is a much greater threat - people frustrated or fearful that their way of life is under threat voting in a so-called ‘strongman’ (in reality a narcissist driven by inner weakness is more usual) who then gradually moves towards ever-increasing tyranny, as in interbellum Germany. Tyranny begins with fear, the kind of fear that fuels the delusional idea that having a gun is going to stop bad things happening.

Actually I've seen some of the videos, and the guns that some of the ukrainians using are the same guns we use to kill deer. So, I won't assume that you have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[renniks]

Giving guns to teachers I guess is one proposal. Certainly, there is no danger in that.

It's already a fact in some areas of the country and has been for years. No one is claiming that we should force teachers to carry guns... but many already have training and already are equipped.

 

[renniks]

And

On the contrary, we have millions of ready made snipers who sit in tree stands or fields and pick off animals from a distance.

 

[renniks]

Indeed...noting that Ukraine has stricter gun regulations than we do....and yet, they are managing to defeat the Russian army...

First thing that the government did was give them back thier guns.

 

[trophy33]

On the contrary, we have millions of ready made snipers who sit in tree stands or fields and pick off animals from a distance.

What is more probable - that some country will attack USA/NATO to the degree you will have to fight for yourself from trees with hunting rifles or that some of those "millions of snipers" without any medical or psychological checks will go crazy for whatever reason (personal, political, ethnic, religious...) and will shoot at other Americans?

And let us be realistic here.

 

[Tom 1]

Actually I've seen some of the videos, and the guns that some of the ukrainians using are the same guns we use to kill deer. So, I won't assume that you have a clue what you're talking about.

You've seen some people using some guns in a video. Meaning what? Have you thought through what you are saying? Do you also use tanks, armed drones, missile and rocket launchers, light and heavy support weapons, full automatic assault rifles, grenades, mines, 30 and 50mm vehicle-mounted canons (etc) to kill deer? From watching your video, what percentage of the 250,000 or so military personnel would you estimate are using hunting rifles? What about the volunteer battalions, what are they armed with? Are you perhaps making the mistake of basing some kind of idea of what is happening on a vid of a few local militia guards?

 

[renniks]

What is more probable - that some country will attack USA/NATO to the degree you will have to fight for yourself from trees with hunting rifles or that some of those "millions of snipers" without any medical or psychological checks will go crazy for whatever reason (personal, political, ethnic, religious...) and will shoot at other Americans?

And let us be realistic here.

My state has 100000 hunters give or take. Incidents of gun accidents are still extremely rare. I'm not worried about those gun owners, only the criminal ones who think a gun is only for shooting people.

And the population having guns is a deterrent, so hopefully we don't get attacked by a foreign power. Without it we are at the mercy of whoever, including if our own government goes Nazi.

 

[renniks]

You've seen some people using some guns in a video. Meaning what? Have you thought through what you are saying? Do you also use tanks, armed drones, missile and rocket launchers, light and heavy support weapons, full automatic assault rifles, grenades, mines, 30 and 50mm vehicle-mounted canons (etc) to kill deer? From watching your video, what percentage of the 250,000 or so military personnel would you estimate are using hunting rifles? What about the volunteer battalions, what are they armed with? Are you perhaps making the mistake of basing some kind of idea of what is happening on a vid of a few local militia guards?

Makes no difference. You are the one claiming our guns are ineffective against any military, which is kind of amusing, since the main argument being used right now about ARs is that they are weapons of war. So which is it? Are they terrible weapons of war or BB guns compared to military weapons? I have family in the military. I know what they use. It doesn't make a AR or a bolt action 30.06 useless for sniping, it just means we will need the military to take on some jobs.

 

[trophy33]

And the population having guns is a deterrent, so hopefully we don't get attacked by a foreign power.

Do you realize you have also an army? Quite a big one and quite an expensive one. Do you think that some amateur hunters are better?

Do you realize you are also in NATO, so that if somebody attacks you, the vast majority of the European Union, Canada etc are coming to help you?

Do you realize you have nuclear weapons and military bases and stations all around the globe?

Hunters are no significant deterrent in the context of this century, I am sorry. Maybe in the 19th century, but not later. I doubt your hypothetical foreign enemy even noticed their existence.
4,000 nuclear warheads and the power to destroy our planet in few minutes is a bit more noticeable.

 

[Tom 1]

Makes no difference. You are the one claiming our guns are ineffective against any military, which is kind of amusing, since the main argument being used right now about ARs is that they are weapons of war. So which is it? Are they terrible weapons of war or BB guns compared to military weapons? I have family in the military. I know what they use. It doesn't make a AR or a bolt action 30.06 useless for sniping, it just means we will need the military to take on some jobs.

To be clear, you think that some people armed with rifles and pistols would present a significant threat to a modern military force?

Whatever you mean by ‘ineffective against any military’, my point is that people having pistols or rifles at home would not prevent a military take over of the US, or any other country with a modern, well-equipped military. Sure, there would be casualties on the military side - if, and this is quite a big if, it played out anything like you appear to imagine it would, with people coordinating well enough to do anything more than pick off a few individual soldiers - but what difference do you think that would make? When NATO used to carry out major training exercises in Europe, before the fall of the Soviet Union, they used to estimate how many troops would die during live fire and other exercises involving heavy equipment. The casualties in a military take over of the US (if such a thing ever happened, which it won’t, tyranny in the US is more likely to happen as the result of a return of some amoral Trump type getting enough popular support to make incremental but significant changes in how the country is run) from civilian fire would be comparable to something like that. If that scenario ever happened a greater threat would be from elements of the military turning on whoever was giving the orders. But in any case discussing delusional fantasies is a bit of a waste of time.

 

[trophy33]

My state has 100000 hunters give or take.

Do you have any animals left?

 

[Tom 1]

My state has 100000 hunters give or take. Incidents of gun accidents are still extremely rare. I'm not worried about those gun owners, only the criminal ones who think a gun is only for shooting people.

And the population having guns is a deterrent, so hopefully we don't get attacked by a foreign power. Without it we are at the mercy of whoever, including if our own government goes Nazi.

The Nazis were voted into power.

 

[Tom 1]

Makes no difference. You are the one claiming our guns are ineffective against any military, which is kind of amusing, since the main argument being used right now about ARs is that they are weapons of war. So which is it? Are they terrible weapons of war or BB guns compared to military weapons? I have family in the military. I know what they use. It doesn't make a AR or a bolt action 30.06 useless for sniping, it just means we will need the military to take on some jobs.

If they could get organised enough to coordinate defensive positions, or carry out guerrilla-style attacks, armed civilians could certainly harass troops. In any kind of firefight however, even if the only advantage was having fully automatic weapons and close combat training, that would be enough to make wiping out the civilians a piece of cake. In any firefight, volume of coordinated fire wins out every time. Any small advantages locals might have in knowing the terrain and so on would be insignificant in the face of overwhelming firepower and superior tactics. A group of individual hunters have one skill set, a platoon of soldiers another.

 

[RDKirk]

On a Christian forum you would think someone would recognize that this is a spiritual attack on young men. What did we do in the past to motivate young men to be good men, not dispicable cowards willing to kill children and die instead of say, getting a job and being a productive citizen?

I've talked about that. In the past, society began guiding young boys toward adult lives by the time their mothers allowed them out into public spaces. "What will you be when you grow up?" was the primary topic of conversation any adult had with a boy.

Most boys didn't go to college. In fact, most boys don't go to college now (or at least don't complete a bachelor's degree). But back then, schools and society didn't pretend they were going to, so society had paths to future adult lives laid out for boys in high school, and boys rolled right into them after being graduated.

 

[Lady Bug]

I wonder if part of the "raising the age from 18 to 21" thing is so that kids who are still in the grade-school age range don't buy one of those things, since such schools are a major target right now.

 

[renniks]

I've talked about that. In the past, society began guiding young boys toward adult lives by the time their mothers allowed them out into public spaces. "What will you be when you grow up?" was the primary topic of conversation any adult had with a boy.

Most boys didn't go to college. In fact, most boys don't go to college now (or at least don't complete a bachelor's degree). But back then, schools and society didn't pretend they were going to, so society had paths to future adult lives laid out for boys in high school, and boys rolled right into them after being graduated.

I agree. There's been a change in expectations somewhere along the way, now it seems we have a lot of permanent adolescents. I see a difference in my older kids attitudes vs the younger. I think the internet has a lot to do with it, and frankly college may have done more harm in that aspect than good, because colleges teach mostly liberal ideas.

 

[Bradskii]

When people are being dragged off by the police in Australia and Canada for holding worship services or having a protest, being " scared" of tyranny is perfectly logical.

I live in daily fear of a knock on the door. Actually, somebody just did knock. My wife cowered behind the sofa and I grabbed a 5 iron prepared to sell my life dearly. But phew...it was the roofer come to fix some slates. I was so relieved.

Actually, on protests...remember those truckers who blocked a main arterial route between Canada and the US. I think it was for two weeks? We had a guy block one lane (out of 7) on the Harbour Bridge a few weeks back - I'm still not sure what he was protesting about - maybe extra rural fire brigades? He was dragged off the van, bundled off to jail and the vehicle towed - all within a couple of hours.

I strongly suspect he was beaten with rubber hoses and had a few finger nails torn out. But there was no comment from the police on that.

 

[Bradskii]

They seem to be helping the people of Ukraine quite a lot as they fight against a tyrannical government.

I like the thought process. Russia invades a neighbouring country, therefore...18 year olds should be able to buy assault-type weapons.

Normally that would be considered satire. But that was a long time ago.

 

[renniks]

Do you have any animals left?

We have plenty. Actually the deer are overpopulated.

 

[Bradskii]

Also, are today's Americans in a shape to be effective fighters? Half of them is obese and most of them is on some kind of psychiatric medication. Not to mention the current oversensitivity to even just words or dislikes on the internet.

Its one thing to shoot from one's gun in a shooting range drinking cola and eating burgers, its a totally different thing in the horror of falling bombs, dead bodies and blood everywhere. The idea is just naive.

I think they're getting used to the 'dead bodies and blood everywhere'.