So, what would it take...?

[drich0150]

It would take a lot for me to change my lack of belief in specifically the Christian god, but that's not to say it is impossible; however, it is very close. What do you mean by "God would have to intervene?"

I would say the discovery of the dead sea scrolls was a confirmation from God.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you, big time. Consider this:

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it. Maybe, 90-95%? Even more, maybe.

I would have to disagree with you here as well. Christianity is not Judaism, you can not be born into your faith. You can take on the persona and even call your self a Christian, but that does not mean you know Christ. This is what defines a Christian, not what you were brought up believing.

To these people (all 1.5-2 billion of them), they aren't Christian because they had an experience with the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of them would be practicing Christians simply because they were born that way. If they were born to Muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about their Islam and if they were born to secular parents, we wouldn't be having this discussion

If they were simply looking for a religion to worship then you are correct, the same can be said about those in christianity who are simply looking for a religion to practice.

 

[sterken7983]

Ok, this comeback is completely flawed on several levels.

1. Nowhere near 90% of police officers would have parents who were police officers, too. But this is besides the point
2. For this argument to work, you would have to make the argument that about 70-90% of Americans would then be police officers and then 100% of Iranians would be police officers. Religion is almost solely based on the location of your birth (assuming you don't convert). So if you compare occupations to religion, you are saying your occupation would be dependent on the country you were born in. Obviously, this is not true, but obviously is true in reference to religion.

You need to understand that religion is different to ALL other lifestyle choices (not really a choice, though) not only because it changes a lot, if not all, of your ways of thinking about life etc. but it is dependent on where you are born; sheer chance.

Let's apply that logic to another hypothetical; the extinction of the dinosaurs:

• Most Americans believe the dinosaurs died from an asteroid/comet
• Most Middle Eastern people believe the dinosaurs died from an influenza
• Most Eastern Asians believe the dinosaurs died from a giant volcano which destroyed the Earth's climate pattern

Kinda dumb, isn't it?

Edit: P.S Hooray for 150th post

I have to respond to this! I don't believe the dinosaurs EVER went extinct. In the last century, there were over 2,000 documented, official sightings of dinosaurs on land, sea and air. You should look into it, the research and reports are very interesting and it really makes you question the evoltuion theory.

 

[sterken7983]

That's simply not the way my Faith works. It is a never ending process of having junk proven to be ... junk. And getting rid of that. This makes room for Truth.

I agree.

 

[sterken7983]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

I like this question. It is one I have heard a lot in my life, not that it was being asked of me particularly but that this is a valid question for the world to ask a Christian.

Yes, for me, there is something that could happen that would make me stop believing.

If I died and either

A) Simply ceased to exist, there was no Creator, no Heaven, no Hell, then the Bible was fictitious. Alas, my existence having simply VANISHED I would never be aware of this.

B) If Christianity and the Bible were wrong and something ELSE happened that is is something TOTALLY different than what the Bible says when I die (like, say, the Indian elephant god or another strange god, or reincarnation or something along those lines) then in this case, I would know that the Bible was wrong (assuming I could be sure I was truly dead and not held captive, being tortured with DMT drugs which open the spiritual eye of man.)

So, basically, If I died and found the Bible to be a lie, then yes, obviously I would not believe it anymore.

The problem here is that I only know once I am dead.

Now, me, personally, my faith is like what Raze said in an earlier post: it is a very active, lively thing that can be even witness to other people (believers and non-believers). One friend I had came to God because I said a prayer out loud, not thinking cause I was very upset that my truck had died and we really needed to be somewhere.) I said out loud, eyes closed, Lord, please start the truck. Turned the key and she popped right off. He was amazed.

So my faith is based on actual events and a genuine interaction with God similar to my interaction with you on this forum.

But putting all that aside, for reason and logic sake, my point is that I would only truly know when I was dead. Meaning, I couldn't turn back once I made my decision whether or not to believe.

So, putting aside my genuine experiences of the Divine, If I choose to believe and I die and I am in fact wrong, nothing happens: I don't go to hell, I'm fine, or I simply don't exist anymore, whatever. Doesn't matter anymore and all I'm out is that I may have missed out on some very raunchy living but overall, I had a good life because I believed in something. Great. Either way, I'm fine.

But if I'm RIGHT and I die, now I stand before God and He is going to look at my life and say, you professed to know Me and follow Me, let's open the books and see if you really did. And this will happen for everybody. All of the sudden, I become very thankful for believing something that everyone told me was very silly and superstitious to believe in.

Likewise, if I don't believe the Bible and think it's simply a pretty story and I die and nothing happens, I was right! The Bible was just a book and it's all fine because nothing happens.

But if I don't believe the Bible and when I die and it turns out the Bible WAS true, now I'm going to spend eternity in hell. And I don't get any more chances.

So here you see the logic. If you can take the small leap of faith to ask God if He's real and to show you He is because if He is, you want to get to know Him than you may save yourself an eternity of damnation. Now He may not exist, also.

Basically, you have to make a wager. It's like working with a wild animal. You have no way to predict their actions and they're too quick so that if you are in the wrong corner of the pen at the wrong time, you're gonna get nailed. So you work with the animal and learn the animal BEFORE jumping into a cage with it, so you can somewhat know what to expect.

Kind of that way with God.

Yes, I could be made to not believe. But I'd have to die first. I don't like those odds.

On top of that, I have a REAL working relationship with the Father: now granted, I get in trouble with Him a lot, but it is the greatest relationship I've ever had with anyone. So, for me to truly answer this question just wouldn't be possible.

But if I had to answer the question, that would be my answer.

 

[mulimulix]

I have to respond to this! I don't believe the dinosaurs EVER went extinct. In the last century, there were over 2,000 documented, official sightings of dinosaurs on land, sea and air. You should look into it, the research and reports are very interesting and it really makes you question the evoltuion theory.

Oh, really? Documented by who?

That's simply not the way my Faith works. It is a never ending process of having junk proven to be ... junk. And getting rid of that. This makes room for Truth.

Please explain what you mean by this.

So, putting aside my genuine experiences of the Divine, If I choose to believe and I die and I am in fact wrong, nothing happens: I don't go to hell, I'm fine, or I simply don't exist anymore, whatever. Doesn't matter anymore and all I'm out is that I may have missed out on some very raunchy living but overall, I had a good life because I believed in something. Great. Either way, I'm fine.

But if I'm RIGHT and I die, now I stand before God and He is going to look at my life and say, you professed to know Me and follow Me, let's open the books and see if you really did. And this will happen for everybody. All of the sudden, I become very thankful for believing something that everyone told me was very silly and superstitious to believe in.

Likewise, if I don't believe the Bible and think it's simply a pretty story and I die and nothing happens, I was right! The Bible was just a book and it's all fine because nothing happens.

But if I don't believe the Bible and when I die and it turns out the Bible WAS true, now I'm going to spend eternity in hell. And I don't get any more chances.

Oh, no. Not Pascal's wager. This may be the most common argument I hear and also (conveniently) the most flawed. Pascal's wager does not work with Christianity because it does not take into account the countless other religions which may also be correct. What happens if you die and Islam was correct? Or what happens if you die and the Ancient Egyptians were correct? Possibly more importantly, if you die thinking you are going to go to heaven, you have wasted (for lack of a better word) your ONLY life you are given. Thinking there is an afterlife leads to reckless decisions in your current life. In other words, if you are wrong about Christianity, yes, nothing happens, but you have also wasted much of the only life you are given.

It also does not take chance into account. Pascal's wager could then be applied to everything! I should then choose to stay home and read a book instead of driving to a bar because I have a greater chance of dying going to the bar than staying at home. This uses the same logic as your use of Pascal's wager, but just a different scenario.

 

[Sketcher]

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

The short answer would be "no."

 

[solarwave]

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

Yes

When I was 17 I answered this question saying that the only thing that would convince me is if it were proven we were in a computer simulation.

Now the biggest thing for me would be psychology. If it were to be proven that what I had interpreted as being God was infact my bias towards belief in God in completely natural events and arguments, then I would have no reason to believe.

Also if Reality was explained by science completely, including the first cause and why the first cause exists.

There may be other things too.

 

[AlexBP]

Oh, no. Not Pascal's wager. This may be the most common argument I hear and also (conveniently) the most flawed.

What Sterken has just said has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager. If you don't know what Pascal's Wager is, perhaps you should read Pensees, the book in which Pascal first mentioned the wager.

Pascal's wager does not work with Christianity because it does not take into account the countless other religions which may also be correct.

I'm inclined to believe that Pascal wrote quite a bit about other religions. Read the book if you need to see the evidence.

Possibly more importantly, if you die thinking you are going to go to heaven, you have wasted (for lack of a better word) your ONLY life you are given.

How so? Back when I was an atheist, I viewed life as nothing but toil and pain. But when Jesus found me my life was turned into endless joy. Even if I died five minutes from now, I would die knowing that I'd made the best use of the life I had, so in what sense would my life be wasted?