So, what would it take...?

[mulimulix]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

 

[Isolation]

No I don't think so.
I can't see my self away from my new faith.
I love it so much

 

[andreha]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

There's nothing that can do that. I know my God is alive and well - no human being will ever convince me otherwise.

 

[drich0150]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

I worship God not the religion of Christianity, so for in order for me to stop practicing Christianity as we know it now, God would have to intervene.

What about you what would it take for you to believe?

 

[John Jay]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

I just became a Christian recently so there are probably people with a lot better answers than mine. But if all Christianity was was just a belief system or an opinion that one way of living is better than another then it would probably be pretty easy to convince me that it's wrong.

But that isn't what it is. Belief in Christianity is only something that happens in response to an event which is when the Holy Spirit calls us and regenerates us. You would have to start by showing me that that event didn't take place.

It would be like saying "i was on a plane that crashed so I believe that planes can crash". If you want me to stop believing that planes can crash you'd have to show me that i wasn't really on a plane that crashed.

 

[AlexBP]

John Jay, that is a brilliant answer. Your last paragraph is pretty similar to the way that I've phrased it before, though with a different comparison. I know my mother. I've talked with her, seen her, heard her throughout my life. Therefore it would take quite a lot to convince me that my mother does not exist. Likewise I talk with Jesus all the time, so it would take quite a lot to convince me that Jesus does not exist.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

No, because we do not believe by our own power but by the power of God. We have not received the logic of man, but the Word of God. Spiritual rebirth is a miracle of God, we do not convince ourselves of the Truth, God reveals Truth to us. I know this is hard for you to understand and believe, but it is true. I wouldn't have believed it 3 years ago before it happened to me. But now that it has happened, there is no convincing me otherwise.

 

[mulimulix]

I worship God not the religion of Christianity, so for in order for me to stop practicing Christianity as we know it now, God would have to intervene.

What about you what would it take for you to believe?

It would take a lot for me to change my lack of belief in specifically the Christian god, but that's not to say it is impossible; however, it is very close. What do you mean by "God would have to intervene?"

But that isn't what it is. Belief in Christianity is only something that happens in response to an event which is when the Holy Spirit calls us and regenerates us. You would have to start by showing me that that event didn't take place.
.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you, big time. Consider this:

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it. Maybe, 90-95%? Even more, maybe. To these people (all 1.5-2 billion of them), they aren't Christian because they had an experience with the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of them would be practicing Christians simply because they were born that way. If they were born to Muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about their Islam and if they were born to secular parents, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it. Maybe, 90-95%? Even more, maybe. To these people (all 1.5-2 billion of them), they aren't Christian because they had an experience with the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of them would be practicing Christians simply because they were born that way. If they were born to Muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about their Islam and if they were born to secular parents, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You are correct, you can say your a Christian and not really be one. The majority of people who say they are Christian, when asked, cannot even explain why they are Christian and what it means to be a Christian. This does not negate those who are truly Christian and have received the Holy Spirit.

Here's a scary Bible verse for these so called Christians:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[mulimulix]

You are correct, you can say your a Christian and not really be one. The majority of people who say they are Christian, when asked, cannot even explain why they are Christian and what it means to be a Christian. This does not negate those who are truly Christian and have received the Holy Spirit.

Here's a scary Bible verse for these so called Christians:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23)

Well I am glad we can agree on something. It's amazing how little times I can say "I agree" on these forums.

 

[John Jay]

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you

OK.

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it.

Let's apply the logic of that question to another situation and see how it works...

What percentage of police officers are police officers because their parents are police officers (i.e. police officers who were never hired by a police or law enforcement agency or attended a police academy, but were just born into it)?

Kinda dumb, isn't it?

 

[mulimulix]

OK.



Let's apply the logic of that question to another situation and see how it works...

What percentage of police officers are police officers because their parents are police officers (i.e. police officers who were never hired by a police or law enforcement agency or attended a police academy, but were just born into it)?

Kinda dumb, isn't it?

Ok, this comeback is completely flawed on several levels.

1. Nowhere near 90% of police officers would have parents who were police officers, too. But this is besides the point
2. For this argument to work, you would have to make the argument that about 70-90% of Americans would then be police officers and then 100% of Iranians would be police officers. Religion is almost solely based on the location of your birth (assuming you don't convert). So if you compare occupations to religion, you are saying your occupation would be dependent on the country you were born in. Obviously, this is not true, but obviously is true in reference to religion.

You need to understand that religion is different to ALL other lifestyle choices (not really a choice, though) not only because it changes a lot, if not all, of your ways of thinking about life etc. but it is dependent on where you are born; sheer chance.

Let's apply that logic to another hypothetical; the extinction of the dinosaurs:

• Most Americans believe the dinosaurs died from an asteroid/comet
• Most Middle Eastern people believe the dinosaurs died from an influenza
• Most Eastern Asians believe the dinosaurs died from a giant volcano which destroyed the Earth's climate pattern

Kinda dumb, isn't it?

Edit: P.S Hooray for 150th post

 

[John Jay]

Ok, this comeback is completely flawed on several levels.

1. Nowhere near 90% of police officers would have parents who were police officers, too. But this is besides the point

That doesn't make it flawed because the argument isn't based on how many people are police officers.

1. For this argument to work, you would have to make the argument that about 70-90% of Americans would then be police officers and then 100% of Iranians would be police officers.

3. No, because the issue isn't how many Americans vs Iranians are police officers, but the similarity of the argument that a person can be a Christian by birth (at least, physical birth) and that that a person can be a police officer by birth.

Religion is almost solely based on the location of your birth

That doesn't have anything to do with what you said but even if it did that wouldn't make the religion wrong.

If I say, "The Phillies are a good baseball team", how does the fact that I'm from Philadelphia make that statement any more or less true?

So if you compare occupations to religion, you are saying your occupation would be dependent on the country you were born in.

No, you we were not discussing the country of birth.

[Obviously, this is not true, but obviously is true in reference to religion.[/quote]

How so?

You need to understand that religion is different to ALL other lifestyle choices (not really a choice, though) not only because it changes a lot, if not all, of your ways of thinking about life etc. but it is dependent on where you are born; sheer chance.

I disagree that religion is the only "lifestyle choice" that changes your thinking in a radical way. Parenthood, for example, will change your thinking in a radical way. Certain occupations, such as being a soldier, will influence your thinking in a radical way.

Let's apply that logic to another hypothetical; the extinction of the dinosaurs:

• Most Americans believe the dinosaurs died from an asteroid/comet
• Most Middle Eastern people believe the dinosaurs died from an influenza
• Most Eastern Asians believe the dinosaurs died from a giant volcano which destroyed the Earth's climate pattern

Kinda dumb, isn't it?

I don't know. I'd have to see it applied to a relevant argument.

 

[hollyda]

[deleting; forgot the "only one non-Christian per thread" thing]

 

[mulimulix]

No, because the issue isn't how many Americans vs Iranians are police officers, but the similarity of the argument that a person can be a Christian by birth (at least, physical birth) and that that a person can be a police officer by birth.

But this is relevant. There are a couple of differences. Firstly, being a police officer doesn't change your views on things that affect everyone such as abortion and stem cell research. I know this is getting a little off topic, but it is still a point worth mentioning. You will be hard pressed to find jobs which are common and will make then influence your decision on things that matter to EVERYONE. It is difficult to explain. Basically, getting a generic job (for argument's sake) most likely will result in you getting a job and nothing else. Being a Christian (or religious in general) WILL result in things outside of 'Just becoming a Christian'.

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of people who get a specific job just because their parents want them to, but it is certainly not anywhere near 90% and it doesn't really make a difference; you have to get a job anyway! You'll probably change jobs many times throughout your adult life; you probably won't change your religion.

That doesn't have anything to do with what you said but even if it did that wouldn't make the religion wrong.

I talk about this in my hypothetical that I put.

If I say, "The Phillies are a good baseball team", how does the fact that I'm from Philadelphia make that statement any more or less true?

If you are a Phillies fan, yes it would absolutely put doubt upon that statement. You hear all the time supporters saying "We will win the championship this year" or "I guarantee you we will win this game" and it doesn't happen. This is a perfect analogy to religion. You think Christianity is the 'correct' faith, but Mohammed in Pakistan says Islam is the correct faith. Dwayne in Indianapolis says the Colts are the best NFL team, but Michael in Boston says the Patriots are; they can't both be right.

How so?

As I explained in my hypothetical, your views on the origin of life, abortion, the age of the universe/earth and a lot of others a dependent on where you are born; being born in China will mean these things are viewed differently by you than if you were born in Argentina. No other thing besides religion does this.

I disagree that religion is the only "lifestyle choice" that changes your thinking in a radical way. Parenthood, for example, will change your thinking in a radical way. Certain occupations, such as being a soldier, will influence your thinking in a radical way.

Yes, but I meant it strictly with the things in the paragraph I just wrote above in mind.

I don't know. I'd have to see it applied to a relevant argument.

Religion is that example! Your views on the things mentioned above are influenced by where you are born!

 

[John Jay]

Mulimix, obviously this is a lot more important to you than it is to me and we're getting way off the topic, anyway so I'm going to let you have the last word.

 

[elman]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect. So, I put to you:

Is there anything that could happen, no matter how (un)likely, that would make you stop believing (in this case) Christianity?

I see a loophole in this because even if there is something which completely proves evolution (which there are), a last resort answer will be "The devil has put it there to deceive us." This answer can be used for ANYTHING, and thus, creates an undisprovable religion.

Evolution being true does not prove Christianity to be false.

 

[elman]

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it. Maybe, 90-95%? Even more, maybe. To these people (all 1.5-2 billion of them), they aren't Christian because they had an experience with the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of them would be practicing Christians simply because they were born that way. If they were born to Muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about their Islam and if they were born to secular parents, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Even accepting your numbers, there are still those who are Christians because they think about it and believe and not because of what their parents believed.

 

[AlexBP]

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you, big time. Consider this:

What percentage of Christians are Christian because their parents are, i.e. Christians who never converted to Christianity; born into it. Maybe, 90-95%? Even more, maybe

Chairman Mao, who ruled China until 1974, violently persecuted all religious believers, and under his reign the number of Christians in China was pushed down to a few hundred thousand. Today there are over one hundred million Christians in China.

Or for another example, consider that Jesus had an inner circle of 12 followers and a slightly larger-circle of hangers-on. Yet by the fourth century, Christians consituted a sizable percentage of the Roman Empire.

Either Christians were being remarkably fecund in those instances (and many others), or else it isn't true that 90-95% of Christians have Christian parents.

To these people (all 1.5-2 billion of them), they aren't Christian because they had an experience with the Holy Spirit.

How do you know? Why do you say that no one raised in a Christian household ever converted due to the work of the Holy Spirit?

If they were born to Muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about their Islam.

Here, I'm afraid that I must charge you with having no idea what you're talking about. No Muslim has ever claimed to have converted because of the work of the Holy Spirit. In Islam there is no Holy Spirit, nor anything comparable.

 

[razeontherock]

I have noticed a pattern; there is nothing that can be said or done to convince a religious person (not just a Christian) that their faith is incorrect.

That's simply not the way my Faith works. It is a never ending process of having junk proven to be ... junk. And getting rid of that. This makes room for Truth.