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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
So what does this mean
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gracealone
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gracealone
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Exactly! This is like people who say they don't believe in God but are also very mad at Him for not existing. This begs the questions; "who" are you mad at?Mitzi
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I really wasn't trying to argue, but everything and any "positive" advice anyone ever says or gives to you, always comes back to you believing your going to Hell, and yet you just said you don't believe in it and or have doubts about it. You can't get a foot-hold on anything Michelle and maybe that's part of the problem? I don't know.
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It says in the Bible that we go to hell for eternity Rowantree. I don't understand why if I don't believe in creation why don't I feel like there is nothing to worry about.
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Some Christians believe in evolution. The Bible doesn't say that belief in a creation method other than literal 6 day creation will send you to hell. It's believing in Christ and accepting His gift that counts.
Also, do you realize that you've asked these questions before raven? I mean I'd seriously would like an answer to that, because you ask the same questions on this forum over and over in slightly different ways and everyone always gives you the same answers. Nevertheless, every time we answer you, you shrug them off and start asking again.
The fact of the matter is that none of us are going to one day have an answer that will suddenly pull back the curtains and give you the means to find immediate relief. The advice you've been given is good, it's just hard to follow. Heck, I know it's horrifying. I had this same symptom and I can't say that, if I had been on this forum when it was at its worst, that I'd be able to totally listen to all the advice on here.
But you just need to follow the advice given by us and your therapist without constantly assessing whether or not you'll be damned if you do it. You know that you've been fighting the same thing and asking the same things for years now, and I think it's clear that you haven't made much progress in beating it. You need to look at that empirical evidence and realize that the current process isn't working. Despite how wrong it would feel to not continue your current compulsions, it's clearly not working.
Something needs to change raven, don't you realize that? I mean all this as a non-rhetorical question. (I'd like an answer.)
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It doesn't matter anymore I can't believe in the supernatural stuff so I can't believe in God and Jesus.
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You didn't answer the questions. This is what I'm talking about, you allow yourself to quickly scrap the idea that you might not be in as much trouble as you feel that you are. You need to learn to go easier on yourself.
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OCD owie I have tried for three years to believe in God creating I can't that means he didn't create Jesus either and Jesus didn't come from a virgin birth or walk on water. How am I not in trouble.
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gracealone
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This is good solid counsel Owie! I agree wholeheartedly!
The only thing that I'd add is that maybe the very best thing for Raven to do would be to just stick with the therapist's recommendations for now so that there won't be anything else muddying up the waters. (I know that I muddy things up for people from time to time because I feel empathy and want to reassure them.) Everything you are advising for Raven to do here is right on. But what concerns me is that not everyone gets the concept that everytime those of us seek reassurance about our OCD questions from others and we actually get it, that we become more and more mired in the OCD cycle. (I think that what you said about the redundancy of Raven's questions is evidence of that. Great insight.) Anyhow in light of how OCD operates, very well intended answers by very well intended people will usually just lead to even more obsessing and ruminating. That won't happen with the therapist. If they are good at their job they won't be providing reassurances. Instead they will be forcing the person with OCD to sit with the obsessions and the anxiety without attending to it in any way until the brain has time to settle down about it.
This forum is so helpful if you can actually plug into the things which help the disorder but I'm very aware that we can also use it to feed our OCD because of the compelling need to get reassurance. When we use it in that way we will be feeding the disorder. I don't know if you agree about any of this or not but it's just something I wanted to share.
God Bless, Mitzi
The only thing that I'd add is that maybe the very best thing for Raven to do would be to just stick with the therapist's recommendations for now so that there won't be anything else muddying up the waters. (I know that I muddy things up for people from time to time because I feel empathy and want to reassure them.) Everything you are advising for Raven to do here is right on. But what concerns me is that not everyone gets the concept that everytime those of us seek reassurance about our OCD questions from others and we actually get it, that we become more and more mired in the OCD cycle. (I think that what you said about the redundancy of Raven's questions is evidence of that. Great insight.) Anyhow in light of how OCD operates, very well intended answers by very well intended people will usually just lead to even more obsessing and ruminating. That won't happen with the therapist. If they are good at their job they won't be providing reassurances. Instead they will be forcing the person with OCD to sit with the obsessions and the anxiety without attending to it in any way until the brain has time to settle down about it.
This forum is so helpful if you can actually plug into the things which help the disorder but I'm very aware that we can also use it to feed our OCD because of the compelling need to get reassurance. When we use it in that way we will be feeding the disorder. I don't know if you agree about any of this or not but it's just something I wanted to share.
God Bless, Mitzi
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No no no, you guys don't understand I don't believe anymore and I don't fear hell. I just can't believe.
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then move on Raven. Your biggest fear was hell and now you don't fear it anymore. time to move on with the next chapter of your life.
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Exactly! So don't try to make it your fault. Stop, give up, accept it.
To win one has to accept it isn't our choice. Start a new chapter as Kodadog wisely says.
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What am I supposed to do accept I am an athiest and move on? I never asked to be athiest it just makes most sense to me.
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I think you have tried very hard to find God and reason to believe. Perhaps the next thing to try is not searching for ways to believe (or not to believe). You don't have to label yourself as an Atheist or Agnostic, just someone living their life. Anything might change, you may find your faith returns, you have already seen it isn't about what someone does (or not). With peace of mind you may find life is better?
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