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So obama believes in the myth of global warming...

Baggins

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Feel free to believe in the snake oil of global warming.

Feel free to ignore every reputable scientific and climatological organisation on earth and believe right wing bloggers instead.

I still can't understand what the far right have against science, I think they just have a problem accepting reality in general, but I can't think why global warming gets a bee in their bonnet, science isn't left wing or right wing it is apolitical.
 
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Steve Petersen

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joebudda

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And claiming there is a scientific consensus is just politics and a lie.



As we can see from ice core data we are in part of a normal cycle. The lie of man-made global warming only looks at the last 100 years or so, but in order to get an actual picture of what is going on we need to look at all the available data. And when we do that it becomes clear that it is quite normal and part of a cycle therefore not the cause of man.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357201,00.html


http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=19026

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_128269.asp

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22621


Dr. Jim O'Brien, State Climatologist of Florida and Emeritus Professor at Florida State University, explains why he is a Global Warming Skeptic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNe2YGbBVj0&eurl=http://www.globalwarming.org/node/2070


And do yourselves a favor and look at the actual evidence and stop believing everything the TV and Al Gore tells you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOi1Pnm4m0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iVAuqGebUI&watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySAGYKsCJyI&watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9HcashWNFs&watch_response
 
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Braunwyn

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I looked around the seed site, where you retrieved the above graph (from NOAA originally?), and found another graph of interest. Now, I don't know much about climate change but if you look to the right of the graph, it's something worth noting.



"Over the past 425,000 years, cool periods have coincided with times when the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere was lower. When there is less CO2 in the atmosphere, the greenhouse effect is reduced and the world cools.
The blue and red line indicates the variation in average global temperature compared with the 1961–1990 average. The green line shows the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. (Pay close attention to the right-hand edge of the graph.)
This graph shows four eras when the world was cooler than it is today. These are separated by brief warm periods, like the one we are now in. "
http://www.seed.slb.com/en/scictr/watch/climate_change/causes_co2.htm
 
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joebudda

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Anthother thing to notice is the CO2 levels tend to "follow" temperature change. Therefore CO2 levels have never "caused" global warming.

Because if CO2 did actually cause global warming we "should" be much warmer then ever before, but that isn't the case at all.
 
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chaim

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Joe, we have gone over the exact figures and points before, why post the again? Of course CO2 follow temperature for previous warmings! No is claiming that the warmings 100k years ago were caused by human CO2 emissions. These warmings were caused by the Milankovitch cycle, which changes the amount of incident solar radiation. CO2 responds to this as the solubility on the ocens decreases and enhances the warming (a positive feedback), thus it follows temperature by about 800-1000 years (which corresponds to the overturning time of the oceans).

Now compare this to the current warming, where CO2 LEADS warming. Something is different.

If the naysyers here have any interest in the actual science of cliamte change, why is it that they only post links to political sites?

(Also, as you know, because I have told you before, your website is an oil industry front).

 
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Braunwyn

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Hmm, now onto this petition which is linked in the fox story. It looks like I meet the qualifications required to sign this petition, and since I know diddly about climate change I have to question the merit of the petition. I'll give it a go though and report back to see if my name is included on the list.

Upon further reading, there's a bit of scrutiny IRT this petition already due to fraud. If anything is a political ploy, this petition is its poster. That's not to say that I have an opinion on climate change one way or another.

eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition
 
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Braunwyn

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Anthother thing to notice is the CO2 levels tend to "follow" temperature change. Therefore CO2 levels have never "caused" global warming.
Well, I don't know if CO2 'causes' warming but based on the graphs CO2 tends to follow suit with climate. It looks like we're dealing with a different animal at present as the graph shows that CO2 levels have never been this high, unless I'm missing something. We're going to have to wait and see what happens.

Because if CO2 did actually cause global warming we "should" be much warmer then ever before, but that isn't the case at all.
The CO2 spike is a recent ocurrence. I'm not sure what the response would like on a time scale or how feedback mechanisms would come into play.
 
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joebudda

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Yes the ocean is a type of "CO2 sponge". Warm oceans hold less Co2 then cold oceans. Which shows that Co2 has always followed warming and never caused the warming.

Now compare this to the current warming, where CO2 LEADS warming. Something is different.
Lets look at the last 10,000 years or so, shall we? The period is called the Holocene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum


We are not warming, we are cooling. Don't fool yourself.

If the naysyers here have any interest in the actual science of cliamte change, why is it that they only post links to political sites?

(Also, as you know, because I have told you before, your website is an oil industry front).
Deny the evidence all you desire. I could care less.
I don't buy it, there is nothing that convinces me it is true at all.

All I ask is allow me my beliefs, which I am more then willing to change if there was any convincing evidence at all, and don't punish me for your unconvincing beliefs. Like with some kind of carbon tax.
 
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chaim

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How does the temperature being higher than it has for the past 10,000 years indicate that we are cooling?

 
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Braunwyn

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Disclaimer- forgive me if I don't make sense with my questions.
Yes the ocean is a type of "CO2 sponge". Warm oceans hold less Co2 then cold oceans. Which shows that Co2 has always followed warming and never caused the warming.
Ok, what kind of effects will such high levels of CO2 have on the atmosphere? I certainly don't know. You seem to have a clue though I'm missing it. If greenhouse gases play a role in keeping the planet warm it's intuitive to think that a substantial increase is gases unchecked would contribute to warming. Many say this isn't the case but I don't understand why.

Lets look at the last 10,000 years or so, shall we? The period is called the Holocene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum


We are not warming, we are cooling. Don't fool yourself.
According to the wiki link, " In terms of the global average, temperatures were probably colder than present day (depending on estimates of latitude dependence and seasonality in response patterns)." I'm not sure what you're getting at here if you wouldn't mind explaining it.

eta: and I don't understand the graph either. What do the dark blue, blue, red, yellow and black lines represent?
 
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joebudda

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How does the temperature being higher than it has for the past 10,000 years indicate that we are cooling?

I don't know what data you are looking at. Today is on the left end of that chart the right is coming out of the last "glacial period". The planet has been on a cooling trend ever sense.
 
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RacismIsBad

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The petition is complete bunk, it takes anyone who holds a PhD and attempts to fool people into thinking that a PhD automatically makes you an expert. I'm working on my PhD right now, but I do biomedical imaging. Ask me about MRI and CT, I know what I'm talking about, but ask me about climate science, and I am no expert. This petition has people that have PhDs in psychology, they know nothing about the science behind climate change. The petition is complete bunk and relies on the ignorance of people who know nothing about science.

And claiming there is a scientific consensus is just politics and a lie.
Actually the lie is claiming there is no scientific consensus, the deniers are the ones attempting to turn this into politics.
 
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chaim

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Of course you are allowed to have your beliefs. However I would question as to whether your beliefs are driven by the evidence, or they are driven by your politics. It is undeniable that almost all climate change skeptics are of conservative/libertarian bent, whereas the mainstream scientific views span both perspectives. If it were a true scientific debate you would expect skeptics on both sides of the isle, which is not the case.

This is painfully evident when you look at the sources that skeptics cite (almost always conservative blogs or political think tanks) compared to the mainstream scientists who are more apt to use actual scientific sources.

 
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chaim

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Notice that 2004 is marked on the left, and is higher than any other period on the plot. The trend for the past 5000 years or so has been cooling, then when you hit the industrial period, all of a sudden the temperatures rise at an unprecedented rate:


How does this possibly show that we are cooling?

I don't know what data you are looking at. Today is on the left end of that chart the right is coming out of the last "glacial period". The planet has been on a cooling trend ever sense.
 
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joebudda

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There is no reason to believe Co2 has any effect at all as far as I can tell.
It is just the air that plants breathe. Maybe we should stop cutting down all the forests? That is the engine that turns that Co2 into oxygen for animals to breathe again.

This whole issue is purely political, there is no scientific consensus.
 
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chaim

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Joe, this is just ridiculous. EVERY climate science organization in the world endorses anthropogenic climate change. There are thousands of scientifc journal

Secondly if CO2 had no effect on temperature we would all be dead. The Earths black body equilibrium temperature is about 250K or -13C, without the greenhouse effect, thats what the temperature would be. Luckily we have some CO2 to keep us warm, the question is how much.

 
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Braunwyn

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Actually, only a BS is required to sign the petition lol. And look at this qualifer:

"4. Chemistry includes 4,796 scientists trained in the molecular interactions and behaviors of the substances of which the atmosphere and Earth are composed."

What, like the elements? geeze louise.

Yea. Sure, I can talk about pKa, and LOG P/D IRT to molecular reactions until the cows come home but that doesn't qualify me to have an opinion, let alone a relevant opinion, on climate change.

Actually the lie is claiming there is no scientific consensus, the deniers are the ones attempting to turn this into politics.
Agreed.
 
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