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BryanW92

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But, interestingly, I've yet to meet a Calvinist who hadn't already concluded that s/he was somehow among the fortunate few to be so chosen.

Now that I'm going to be an insider, I'll ask around and let you know.
 
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circuitrider

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But, interestingly, I've yet to meet a Calvinist who hadn't already concluded that s/he was somehow among the fortunate few to be so chosen.

Me either. But as I understand the theology, thinking you are part of the elect doesn't make you part of the elect. So maybe they should worry more. ;)
 
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WiredSpirit

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Do Calvinist's think that they are the only elect? And do they believe in the 144,000 or something as being the only chosen few?

One of the five points of Calvinism is unconditional election. They believe God has already chosen who will receive mercy and there is nothing the chosen or not chosen can do about it. You only think you have a choice, but there's something called irresistible grace, which as the name implies you can't resist it. So basically if you are a part of the elect, grace is forced upon you forcing you to make all the right choices. You don't come to God freely. Its all predetermined.

For a different or perhaps more fair assessment, ask in the Presbyterian forum.
 
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BryanW92

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Do Calvinist's think that they are the only elect? And do they believe in the 144,000 or something as being the only chosen few?

I think that modern-day Calvinists water down the unconditional election thing down a bit, because they explain it as "the cross was sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."

I haven't studied the concept enough to know when they started saying that. But, in all the discussions of Calvinism vs Arminianism I had in the UMC, that statement never came up. It was always explained as "they think the elect are saved no matter what, and the rest of doomed no matter what".
 
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GraceSeeker

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But, in all the discussions of Calvinism vs Arminianism I had in the UMC, that statement never came up. It was always explained as "they think the elect are saved no matter what, and the rest of doomed no matter what".


CF's congregational sub-forums tend to keep people from having cross-theological conversations, but all it would have taken is for a Calvinists to not argue against Wesley-Arminian understandings and just tell us that the no longer believed in the doctrine of election as it had once been taught and explain their new understanding. I don't recall that anyone ever did.
 
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circuitrider

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Unfortunately GraceSeeker I've run across more militant Calvinist than Arminians. So I sort of appreciate that the CF Congregational forums keep the more radical Calvinists from junking up our threads with arguments about Calvinism.

I think a good healthy discussion could be had if everyone would just be polite. But it is way to easy for some branch or other of Christianity to argue as if only their branch is right, or worse, only their branch is of the "elect." (to use a Calvinist term.)
 
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BryanW92

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CF's congregational sub-forums tend to keep people from having cross-theological conversations, but all it would have taken is for a Calvinists to not argue against Wesley-Arminian understandings and just tell us that the no longer believed in the doctrine of election as it had once been taught and explain their new understanding. I don't recall that anyone ever did.

Unfortunately GraceSeeker I've run across more militant Calvinist than Arminians. So I sort of appreciate that the CF Congregational forums keep the more radical Calvinists from junking up our threads with arguments about Calvinism.

I think a good healthy discussion could be had if everyone would just be polite. But it is way to easy for some branch or other of Christianity to argue as if only their branch is right, or worse, only their branch is of the "elect." (to use a Calvinist term.)

In Sunday school today, an issue came up that would have been settled quickly by talking about Prevenient Grace. I just kept my mouth shut and listened. Some people talked about the elect and non-elect and I was getting concerned, but then the leader of the class stopped them and explained "Common Grace" to them. Guess what? It's Prevenient Grace!

I agree with CR that Calvinists are more militant on faith issues than Arminians. One of my deciding factors to leaving the UMC to become Presbyterian was because that says more about Arminians than Calvinists.

But, in just a few weeks, I've learned that they do have the three forms of grace and that the non-elect aren't standing outside of Jesus' Circle of Friends pleading to be let in while he and his Elect stand inside laughing at them for their bad luck.
 
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circuitrider

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I agree with CR that Calvinists are more militant on faith issues than Arminians. One of my deciding factors to leaving the UMC to become Presbyterian was because that says more about Arminians than Calvinists.

Can you explain what you mean by the above?


But, in just a few weeks, I've learned that they do have the three forms of grace and that the non-elect aren't standing outside of Jesus' Circle of Friends pleading to be let in while he and his Elect stand inside laughing at them for their bad luck.

They don't actually have "three forms of grace" Bryan. What you've experiences is that like many churches, Sunday School teachers will teach things that aren't the official doctrine of the church. I know of no "common grace" in Calvinist theology. I'm not saying the teacher isn't right. I'm saying he wasn't teaching Calvinist doctrine.
 
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circuitrider

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Yes Bryan, it is an innovation in Calvinism and not part of the original concept. As you read the article you'll notice is a a controversial view and not a standard universal part of Calvinism.

As to if it is PCA doctrine, I'd have to research.

Do note that it is not the same as prevenient grace. This can be seen in the article.
 
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circuitrider

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Also Bryan, it is up to you, but you never quite answered what you meant by the first statement above that they lack of Arminians being on the attack about Arminianism caused you to move to Calvinism. At least that's how it read to me.

If you don't want to clarify that's up to you. But it seemed unusual.
 
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BryanW92

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Can you explain what you mean by the above?

People bring all sorts of ideas into church. In a predominantly Christian environment, those ideas tend to cluster around orthodox Christianity. In a post-Christian society like ours, those ideas do not cluster around orthodox Christianity, so you have to decide whether you accept all ideas or make a statement of your beliefs and decide how far from your orthodoxy you are willing to let people stray before you tell them that they might not be in the right place.

The UMC is not a confessing church. I felt the need to move to place with strong and fixed beliefs. It is a need that I felt, based on my own experiences, and I do not advocate it for anyone unless they feel a similar discomfort.
 
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BryanW92

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Do note that it is not the same as prevenient grace. This can be seen in the article.

True. But its a far cry from the commonly held belief that Calvinism does not believe in grace for the non-elect. That was the point that I was making.

As for it being "new", I've heard several pastors in church (including my Sunday school teacher) commenting on how he prefers to use "Reforming" over "Reformed" since we are not a finished work.
 
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circuitrider

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The UMC is not a confessing church. I felt the need to move to place with strong and fixed beliefs. It is a need that I felt, based on my own experiences, and I do not advocate it for anyone unless they feel a similar discomfort.

I can see the desire for that though it is not how I view faith.

The one problem I see for you may be if you can fully accept the set of fixed beliefs being presented to you. If you disagree with any of them then you may be out of fellowship with such a church.
 
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circuitrider

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True. But its a far cry from the commonly held belief that Calvinism does not believe in grace for the non-elect. That was the point that I was making.

As for it being "new", I've heard several pastors in church (including my Sunday school teacher) commenting on how he prefers to use "Reforming" over "Reformed" since we are not a finished work.

Yes, but what good is grace for the "non-elect" if they are doomed to hell? It sounds like pretty thin grace to me.

That being said, I'm not intending to get into a Calvinism/Arminian debate. It isn't very fruiftul to do so.
 
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BryanW92

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Also Bryan, it is up to you, but you never quite answered what you meant by the first statement above that they lack of Arminians being on the attack about Arminianism caused you to move to Calvinism. At least that's how it read to me.

If you don't want to clarify that's up to you. But it seemed unusual.

I didn't say "on the attack". I was just agreeing about the word "militant". Are militant gays "on the attack" against the UMC, in your opinion? Or do they just have strongly held beliefs from which they will not waver?
 
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