So, it begins!

[SharonL]

Don't worry. Just use the same scriptures you use to justify the death penalty, preemptive wars based upon lies, secret wiretaps without warrants, the Military Commissions Act, the Patriot Act, et al....and all the other evils of government:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

(Romans 13:1-5)"

WOW!!!! Your left wing is showing

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

A few weeks back I had posted a "word" from God, that soon the church would fall under strong and very real attack. I believe it's begun.

The feds have lauched what appears to me to be a witch-hunt against many of our televangelists and several mega-churches. Jakes, Cref, Benny and Joyce are among the targets. We, as Christians, must stand for truth and Christ in all this. While we certainly don't want illegalities in these ministries, we also must grade against an anti-Christian group of unbelievers attempting to control our churches. The "left" is doing there best to sanitize our society from anything Christian. Time for Christians to stand up and join this fight!

His,
rev

This "witch-hunt" is not the product of the left. It is the product of a very conservative Christian senator from Iowa.

Get your facts straight.

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

Don't worry. Just use the same scriptures you use to justify the death penalty, preemptive wars based upon lies, secret wiretaps without warrants, the Military Commissions Act, the Patriot Act, et al....and all the other evils of government:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

(Romans 13:1-5)"

First of all, the entire Old Testament might as well be a treatise in support of the death penalty. For heaven's sake, God often exacted judgment upon people who refused to execute the wicked. (Look at Saul.)

As for the New Testament, there is very little mention of the death penalty because the entire world at the time was governed by Rome. Under the Pax Romana, the Romans assumed exclusive jurisidiction over the death penalty, meaning that the rulers of Judea and the Sanhedrin could not execute any criminal--only the Romans could. Hence the reason Jesus was crucified by the Romans and not stoned by the Jews. So, the relative absence of any discussion of the death penalty in the New Testament can be explained by the fact that such discussion would have been moot.

Still, the New Testament does not condemn the death penalty, which given that the Old Testament is repleate with instances of capital punishment, and given that God never changes, one must surmise that His opinion about the subject has never changed either.

Now to the US Constitution. Since you and I are both lawyers, I am sure you will appreciate this discussion....

As you are most likely aware, one of the basic canons of statutory construction is the notion that document must be construed to avoid internal contradiction. In other words, an ambiguity in a document must be construed so that it does not contradict the rest of the document.

The Eighth Amendment does object to cruel and unusual punishment. This is a pretty ambiguous term. Depending upon who the judge may be, "cruel and unusual" might mean the death penalty; then again, it might also mean incarceration. What ever a judge wants, he could interpret the term to fit his own worldview.

However, if the judge is following the aforesaid statutory canon, he will recognize that the Eighth Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, which was passed by Congress in 1789, and ratified by the states in 1791. He will also recognize that the Fifth Amendment is as much part of the Bill of Rights as is the Eighth Amendment. Therefore, he will have to construe the Fifth and the Eighth Amendments as a whole, and not in a vacuum.

Let's briefly examine the Fifth Amendment...

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. "

Notice, first of all, that it speaks of "capital" crimes. The word capital comes from the Latin "capitas" which means "head." A capital crime, therefore, is a crime where one may lose his head, i.e. die.

Second, notice that the Double Jeopardy clause speaks of a person losing "life or limb."

Third, notice that the Fifth Amendment speaks of one losing his "life, liberty or property." One may not lose life, liberty or property without due process of law; however, by negative implication, one may lose his life, liberty or property with due process of law.

Well, given that the same people who wrote the Fifth Amendment also wrote the Eighth Amendment at the very same time, in the very same document, it would be absurd to conclude that the Eighth Amendment prohibits capital punishment since it is apparent that the Fifth Amendment anticipates it.

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

Aaah, Nephilimiyr.....your bias is showing through.

In the first place, you don't just walk in and get a tax-exempt status. You have to show on paper what you are doing.

As a tax payer, you (Nephilimiyr) are subject to a random tax audit, unless someone presents EVIDENCE that you have stolen something.

Since this is a tax issue, shouldn't these people be afforded the same rights...... a random audit, unless EVIDENCE is presented to show dishonesty.

And when you are audited, it isn't published in the newspapers for all to see, what you have purchased with your own money, for the world to judge your expenditures.

What about the right to be found quilty BEFORE we are put out there to be judged by the world and condemned by Christians who have plenty wrong with their own lives that they wouldn't want published.

Not necessarily....

The situation we are witnessing here is a juxtaposition between churches and other Sec. 501(c)(3) organization.

Run-of-the-mill Sec. 501(c)(3) organizations do not have to pay taxes, but they still have to file a tax return to the IRS each year showing how much money they are spending for executive compensation and the like. Churches, however, do not have to file any type of return to the IRS. Even though they are Sec. 501(c)(3) organziations, they are afforded special protection under the First Amendment.

The IRS has very limited information on these particular ministries since they call themselves "churches" (unlike Oral Roberts Ministries or Billy Graham's organization, which are not classified as "churches"). As such Senator Grassley is merely requesting that these ministries voluntarily turn their financial information over to his committee for examination. Unless and until his committee issues a subpoena duces tecum, they are under no obligation to comply with his request.

Now what legal reason would he have to make this inquiry? Well, all Sec. 501(c)(3) organizations are given tax exempt status because they promise to use their tax exempt donations to further their tax exempt purpose. It would be a violation of the tax code for me to set up a "church" where 100% of the income went to me. I would have to use most of the income for a tax-exempt purpose.

Since churches still have to pay sales taxes, use taxes and property taxes in some jurisidictions, some of their purchases become a part of the public record. Thus when Joyce Meyer's ministries recently purchased a $20,000 commode, it became part of the public record. When Sen. Grassley learned of this, he wanted to find out how this commode advances the church's tax exempt purpose.... which he has every right to ask.

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

If that was all it was (checking it's integrity), then I would agree with you.

But have you not noticed the increasing hatred for Christianity in this country and the fact that the only group you can insult and not be accused of being politically incorrect, are Christians?

If this inquiry had come from Nancy Pelosi, I would be bothered by this investigation. But it is coming from a respectable, conservative Christian Republican who is opposed to abortion as much as you or I. So I am not worried.

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

Having more money then you does not mean they're evil.

It just means that I want someone to buy me a house and give it to me for a penny. We're talkin nice house. Thank you.

No. It's not having the money... its how you get the money and what you do with it after you get it.

When my wife worked for a major ministry, she would answer telephone calls for prayer. One time, a little old lady called to say, "Please tell __________ (the minister) that I couldn't afford to give this month, but I promise to next month." I worked for the same organization, and my first week on the job I saw a letter where a person donated stamps for postage. That was all he had to give. I almost started crying.

Many of the people who give to these ministries are the poorest of the poor. Their gifts are special to God. This is all the more reason why these ministries must take special care of these donations. Otherwise, I do not think that God will be pleased.

(BTW, I am not saying that this ministry misued their donations. That is not the point of my comments. I have no evidence to conclude one way or the other.... Instead, I am simply saying that people who give to these organizations are doing it out of their poverty, not out of their abundance.)

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

The problem is it doesn’t matter if these people are totally innocent or not, because the damage is already done. People have already passed judgment. There will be people for years that slam these ministers, who will never find out if it is true or not. The biggest thing I see is that is even more devastating than these so called allegations is not so called but the very true gossip about these people. We need to watch what we say, we are held accountable to God for every word that proceeds out of our mouths.

(Example)
I know a of a Pastor in California who is a registered sex offender. He has to register as a sex offender. So everyone who looks at his profile on the internet has passed judgment on him.
OK here is the problem—all he did was spank his child and his child called the police and they filled charges. He went to court and the charge you receive for spanking your child is the same charge someone gets for sexually assaulting a minor.

So this person is ruined because of accusations. That were not true.
· Because of this, he can never get certain jobs.

We as a church need to come together and fight the devil instead of each other.

We need to be about our fathers business and go after lost people—instead of acting like lost people.

All we are reporting is that Congress is investigating these people. When Congress investigates, it becomes relevant to everyone.

 

[pauldst]

Please forgive the long post...

The devil wouldn't be attacking these people if they didn't give him an avenue to attack. These people have opended up a highway for him!

Huh? The devil "attacked" Jesus. Did He open up a highway for the devil? The devil attacks, it is what he does. You know, he steals, kills and destroys?

Tele-evangelists have a mandate from scripture, the responsiblity before God and the Church to avoid any criticism in the way they adminster the money given to them, and to live right in the eyes of men.

2 Corinthians 8:19-21 NIV ... 20 We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift.
21 For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men....

Wanting and trying to avoid criticism does not mean that ine can, especially when doing what the Lord wants. The devil tries to derail the Lord's will and one of his ways of doing that is criticism and accusation. Also, Jesus really stepped on some toes...sometimes doing God's will invites criticism.

As it currently stands, they certainly aren't living right in the eyes of most of the church or any men.

Maybe it is the eyes of the beholders are lacking. Jesus was not living right in the eyes of the Pharisees. When one passes judgement one should have good evidence before doing so.

We can't see the good for the blatent and lavish displays of selfishness.

Were Abraham, Job, David, and others selfish for being blessed by God and enjoying it? If I spend $100,000 on my self am I selfish? If all I had to start with was the 100k, then yes. But if I started with a million? What about if I sacrificed and scrimped, lived in poverty for years before living well? When one passes judgement one should have good evidence before doing so.

But leaders in the church, who receive offerings, have a completely different obligation.

Most of these leaders are on salaries. They have a board of directors who watch the finances and are part of salary decisions. These people are not just taking what they want. When one passes judgement one should have good evidence before doing so.

I hate to disagree with you dear. But the devil will attack anything that calls itself by the name of God. He does not attack his own.. If one has not been attacked or is not being attacked then they need to check their relationship with God.

Amen!!!

I see where you're coming from, rev. And I agree to a point. Jesus told us to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what is Gods.
...
What really needs to happen is for the church to fall on its face before God, put aside its petty differences with one another and unite in revival. We need some Holy Ghost fire up in here!

Another Amen!!

1. The World has always and will always hate Christ and Christians. Get used to it. There is nothing we can do to change that. It's not our job to run a PR campaign for God. It's our job to preach the Gospel.

2. The government is conducting this investigation in order to protect us from fraudulent practices. It's a good thing. It's good to protect naive and innocent people from being fleeced.

4. If we the Church would've demanded accountability, if we would've stopped acting like these people's reputations need to be protected above anything else, if we weren't so afraid of bringing things into the light to deal with, God wouldn't be using the World to do it for us.

5. Just because we talk about the need for accountability, just because we point out error, doesn't mean we are not also praying for them.

6. It's wrong to judge the hearts and motivations of one another just because we disagree with each on this issue. You don't know what is in a person's heart.

Except that I would say that it is our job to obey God rather than preaching the Gospel.
Hmmmm, isn't preaching the Gospel doing PR for God? Seriously, I had not thought of it that way before, but I think that might be true.

3. God doesn't need high profile people to spread the Gospel. The people who get saved from hearing these people preach would've gotten saved from hearing someone else preach. God calls people to Him. Also, the ends don't justify the means.

Was Jesus high profile? I consider Him to have been. I could argue that, up to the point of disobedience to God's will, the ends do justify the means. (Consider Paul's statement that he became all things to all men before getting outraged at this.)

...
God didn't need PTL to do His work, and He doesn't need other corrupt ministries.

Do you really think that PTL started out corrupt? I do not know whether Jim Bakker was truly following God's call on his life, but I know of no evidence that he was not or that he was corrupt from the beginning. The devil attacks--especially leaders and those that are prominent--and he does so where there is weakness. There may be too many leaders who have glaring weaknesses, but that is, unfortunately, normal for the western church today; maybe some are corrupt, but everyone has some weakness, even those who follow God's call. In any case, how can you say that PTL was not of God? (Btw, I remember PTL from early on...)

...
I welcome this Congressional review, and if the 6 ministries are found to be legal and above board, then good, many people will then have a better opinion of them, they will raise more money and be more effective. If they are found to be corrupt, then at least people may start sending their money to better deserving and needy ministries who will use it with humility and thankfulness.

We'll see...

Hmmm

sorry to be a spoil sport, or a party pooper, but some of those mentioned are deserving of scrutiny and probably should long ago have been rejected as teachers by the Christian community.

I'm reminded of the scripture "judgement begins at the house of God." I don't think this is an attack by the world or the devil.. I think its a last wake up call to a corrupt church before God starts visiting real judgements on us.

I think that there is some truth in this. But the point of the OP was that "We, as Christians, must stand for truth and Christ in all this."
Where is the problem with that?

If the church had not been negligent in dealing with these ministries in a bold and candid manner, then the Government would not be involved. Shame on us that we've let it go so far that the government is having to do what we have failed to.

I agree. The problem is that we have a fractured church. On this scale/level we are not capable of doing what needs to be done.

The problem is it doesn’t matter if these people are totally innocent or not, because the damage is already done. People have already passed judgment. There will be people for years that slam these ministers, who will never find out if it is true or not. The biggest thing I see is that is even more devastating than these so called allegations is not so called but the very true gossip about these people. We need to watch what we say, we are held accountable to God for every word that proceeds out of our mouths.
...
We as a church need to come together and fight the devil instead of each other.

We need to be about our fathers business and go after lost people—instead of acting like lost people.

do you realize that the church is the only people that if one of it's members fall they kick em while their down? Instead of helping them up like God commanded. HOW SAD

I have heard this for years, but in the real world have found it to only be half true. There are lots of "places" in the world that kick their members when they are down. And I have seen churches that do not kick 'em while they are down.

Ultimately, there is only one good answer for you.....we need the rain to fall! I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about the Holy Spirit and the gifts.

Open the flood gates of Heaven Lord, let it rain, let it rain! Amen...

There is ever only one way to shut those hecklers up, they need to see and feel the power of God work in their lives.

And you don't want an investigation into this? Are you thinking clearly?
...

What a giant joke. So big, I can't laugh.

The problem from the OP is not whether should be integrity in ministries, the problem is whether that investigation will be honest and fair itself.

The Church is made up of all Believers. Attack any one member and you are attacking The Church. We are a body and have many members, said Paul. If I attack your finger am I not attacking your body? I'm not sure that God sees "churches" as anything other than local groupings of cells, so to speak. Whether a soup kitchen or a teaching ministry, groups of believers or individual believers, all are part of the church.

I have something that I got in the mail from Joyce Meyer right here beside me. Not one time do I see where it asks for money.

Where is the evidence of wrong doing? Do not judge without gathering evidence.

Look, I have never been real big on televangelists. But then I've never been big on eating seafood, either. That does not mean that I think that people that eat seafood are corrupt. Okay, wait, a more serious example... hmmm... I've never been big on hymns and liturgy. Some people who participate in such things are corrupt. However, I don't consider all such people corrupt, nor even any one of them corrupt without other evidence.

 

[pauldst]

This "witch-hunt" is not the product of the left. It is the product of a very conservative Christian senator from Iowa.

Get your facts straight.

I had not heard of this before reading this thread. Still, I understand that Grassley is a good man (I live in Iowa). But once something like this is opened up in ths Senate, what's to keep Pelosi, Kennedy, Franks, etc. out of it?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Pauldst:

Huh? The devil "attacked" Jesus. Did He open up a highway for the devil? The devil attacks, it is what he does. You know, he steals, kills and destroys?

Actually yes! Jesus did open up a highway for the devil to attack him. When Jesus layed down his life, Jesus pretty much let the devil, um, do his thing.

Also, the idea I spoke of is if the devil attacking successfully.

All other times that you maybe thinking of, was not of the devil attacking successfully. The devil sure tried to attack Jesus, but Jesus won every battle! The only time the devil was successful in attacking Jesus was when Jesus layed down his life.

When people open up a highway for the devil to attack them, he will be successful with those attacks, if people aren't on their guard.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Frames are people made, not from satan. Satan can only attack using human will to hurt God's children, which is his only purpose.

 

[lismore]

First of all, the entire Old Testament might as well be a treatise in support of the death penalty.

Hey now, a court managed to convict Jesus on trumped up charges!

If a court could convict God what makes you think they couldnt trump up charges on someone else?

How many people have been executed who didnt commit any crime whatsoever, except for angering the governing clique?

 

[lismore]

P.S. My dear dad unfortunately receives regular newsletters and correspondence from those con artists, Hinn and Hickey. I read them when I visit, and I kid you not, every single letter is asking for money. Every single one. How the hell can you justify that? Not one letter that doesn't ask you for money.

Yep, I get those letters too!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

satn can attack using things. Dangerous vehicles, wind storms, etc.
When satan attacked Job the only place he didn't use natural means was when the enemy attacked his livestock and each time only one servant got out alive to tell the story. But all the aother times only natural means was used. Superstitious tales and rumours are fuel used by satan to fan the flames but they aren't the flames themselves.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A few weeks back I had posted a "word" from God, that soon the church would fall under strong and very real attack. I believe it's begun.

The feds have lauched what appears to me to be a witch-hunt against many of our televangelists and several mega-churches. Jakes, Cref, Benny and Joyce are among the targets. We, as Christians, must stand for truth and Christ in all this. While we certainly don't want illegalities in these ministries, we also must grade against an anti-Christian group of unbelievers attempting to control our churches. The "left" is doing there best to sanitize our society from anything Christian. Time for Christians to stand up and join this fight!

His,
rev

Interesting!

 

[churchlady]

Not necessarily....

The situation we are witnessing here is a juxtaposition between churches and other Sec. 501(c)(3) organization.

Run-of-the-mill Sec. 501(c)(3) organizations do not have to pay taxes, but they still have to file a tax return to the IRS each year showing how much money they are spending for executive compensation and the like. Churches, however, do not have to file any type of return to the IRS. Even though they are Sec. 501(c)(3) organziations, they are afforded special protection under the First Amendment.

The IRS has very limited information on these particular ministries since they call themselves "churches" (unlike Oral Roberts Ministries or Billy Graham's organization, which are not classified as "churches"). As such Senator Grassley is merely requesting that these ministries voluntarily turn their financial information over to his committee for examination. Unless and until his committee issues a subpoena duces tecum, they are under no obligation to comply with his request.

Now what legal reason would he have to make this inquiry? Well, all Sec. 501(c)(3) organizations are given tax exempt status because they promise to use their tax exempt donations to further their tax exempt purpose. It would be a violation of the tax code for me to set up a "church" where 100% of the income went to me. I would have to use most of the income for a tax-exempt purpose.

Since churches still have to pay sales taxes, use taxes and property taxes in some jurisidictions, some of their purchases become a part of the public record. Thus when Joyce Meyer's ministries recently purchased a $20,000 commode, it became part of the public record. When Sen. Grassley learned of this, he wanted to find out how this commode advances the church's tax exempt purpose.... which he has every right to ask.

The question I have is this......since the IRS has powers to investigate, why didn't they investigate these ministries if they had reason to believe there was wrong doing?

Why did it have to involve a Senate investigation, for heaven's sake?

 

[habeas]

WOW!!!! Your left wing is showing

Left wing? ROFL! Well, Fox News is not my daddy, so I suppose I am. I am left wing because I agreed with Bush when he ran originally on a limited humble foreign policy and was against the Clintonite "nation-building" policies. I won't be fooled again.

I was a Reagan Republican, you know, the kind that believes in a limited government, believes in reducing the national debt! Reagan left Lebanon, after saying he would not "cut and run," but I respect him for I that because he knew the middle east was a quagmire not worth losing American life and the expense of a trillion tax dollars to the point where we are forced to borrow from the Chinese.

I am against the legalization of abortion and the legalization of homosexual marriage. I am a young earth creationist and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

You're right, I can't support the neocon agenda or what passes for being a Republican these days, because I believe in upholding the Constitution.

So I'm a libertarian, and I have decided the only candidate speaking truth to power is Ron Paul, a Republican who the mainstream media is attempting to censor and exclude from the debates.

Get you facts straight before you accuse someone of being "left wing."

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

Hey now, a court managed to convict Jesus on trumped up charges!

If a court could convict God what makes you think they couldnt trump up charges on someone else?

How many people have been executed who didnt commit any crime whatsoever, except for angering the governing clique?

I am not denying that some people have been wrongfully executed.

What I am saying is that when a person is clearly found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, particularly when the crime is committed in the presence of two or more eyewitnesses, then there is no Biblical or U.S. Constitutional prohibition against execution.

The only problem I see with the death penalty in the United States is that it takes so long (sometimes as long as 20 years) that by the time the execution occurs, the deterrent effect is severely diminished---often because liberals start whining about how we need to spare the life of the convicted.

 

[TheMatmanReturns]

I had not heard of this before reading this thread. Still, I understand that Grassley is a good man (I live in Iowa). But once something like this is opened up in ths Senate, what's to keep Pelosi, Kennedy, Franks, etc. out of it?

Nothing, since the Dems are in control. But, the fact of the matter is that either (a) these ministries are being good stewards with God's money, or (b) they are not.

Since these ministries are not open about their finances, perhaps this is the only way that we will ever learn how they are spending their money. If alternative (a) is true, then what's the harm? But if alternative (b) is true, then what's the harm?

 

[lismore]

What I am saying is that when a person is clearly found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt,

And Im saying thats not possible. People lie, money talks, evidence can be manipulated.

There is doubt in everything.