So, Israel...

[Hieronymus]

Thanks.

Yeah, for what it's worth...
I bet someone else can explain it a lot better.

Don't suppose you'd answer this, soon?

I just did.

 

[Non sequitur]

Yeah, for what it's worth...
I bet someone else can explain it a lot better.I just did.

Yay.

I asked another

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you know who they bought it from?
Who was already there, if anyone?

You seriously don't know this?

 

[Non sequitur]

You seriously don't know this?

Not fully (or correct), as others might.

That's why I wrote that long post, in the beginning. I even put, "I am serious".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not fully (or correct), as others might.

That's why I wrote that long post, in the beginning. I even put, "I am serious".

Alright, here's the short version...

Pre WW1...the area was part of the ottoman empire...one of the largest and most successful empires of mankind. Really though, the ottoman empire was a loose confederation of different lands and peoples who recognized the authority of the ottomans. After WW1...the land currently known as Palestine and Israel was considered British territory...as part of the agreement between the ottomans and British.

The British tried to move in...but it never really worked out. They were always fighting the Palestinian people who didn't recognize their authority the way they did the ottomans.

Post WW2...the jews who left Europe saw an opportunity to resettle that land which the British didn't really want anymore and essentially bargained for it. This was officially recognized internationally as the creation of the state of Israel...but the Palestinians were even less fond of the jews than they were the British.

Israel offered the Palestinians a two state deal...which would've formed Palestine and Israel...since initially the jews didn't want to make enemies and wanted their newly acquired and fragile state to work. The Palestinians completely disagreed insisting that the jews leave or there would be war.

Eventually, the Palestinians got enough support from their other Arabic neighbors several of which were also former ottoman empire lands...and they waged war against Israel together. The U.S. supported Israel. Israel basically devastated these new Arabic states and claimed the land as their own...but they never wiped out the Palestinians.

Since that time, the Palestinians have been trying to win back the land either through international support...or through war...but never through diplomacy. While Israel has conceded to the Palestinians several times hoping for peace...that never happened...and now they tend to look at the idea of peace with Palestine as a lost cause.

That's the short version.

The U.S. basically supports Israel because they are a democratic nation of non-Arabs in the middle east...our interests align.

 

[Non sequitur]

Alright, here's the short version...

Pre WW1...the area was part of the ottoman empire...one of the largest and most successful empires of mankind. Really though, the ottoman empire was a loose confederation of different lands and peoples who recognized the authority of the ottomans. After WW1...the land currently known as Palestine and Israel was considered British territory...as part of the agreement between the ottomans and British.

The British tried to move in...but it never really worked out. They were always fighting the Palestinian people who didn't recognize their authority the way they did the ottomans.

Post WW2...the jews who left Europe saw an opportunity to resettle that land which the British didn't really want anymore and essentially bargained for it. This was officially recognized internationally as the creation of the state of Israel...but the Palestinians were even less fond of the jews than they were the British.

Israel offered the Palestinians a two state deal...which would've formed Palestine and Israel...since initially the jews didn't want to make enemies and wanted their newly acquired and fragile state to work. The Palestinians completely disagreed insisting that the jews leave or there would be war.

Eventually, the Palestinians got enough support from their other Arabic neighbors several of which were also former ottoman empire lands...and they waged war against Israel together. The U.S. supported Israel. Israel basically devastated these new Arabic states and claimed the land as their own...but they never wiped out the Palestinians.

Since that time, the Palestinians have been trying to win back the land either through international support...or through war...but never through diplomacy. While Israel has conceded to the Palestinians several times hoping for peace...that never happened...and now they tend to look at the idea of peace with Palestine as a lost cause.

That's the short version.

The U.S. basically supports Israel because they are a democratic nation of non-Arabs in the middle east...our interests align.

Thanks.

So, the Palestinians were on the land, when the ottoman empire had it. That land became British territory, after WW1.

After WW2, the Israeli moved to the land, that the Palestinians were currently on, and offered to...share someone else's land with...themselves?

That sounds like me walking into a McDonald's, finding someone eating, and offering to share their food with them. And McDonald's officially recognized internationally that as my food.

I'd think the Palestinians would have a right to be upset?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, the Palestinians were on the land, when the ottoman empire had it.

The Canaanites were given the land first.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

But due to defilement, they lost their right to live there.

Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Leviticus 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thanks.

So, the Palestinians were on the land, when the ottoman empire had it. That land became British territory, after WW1.

Yup.

After WW2, the Israeli moved to the land, that the Palestinians were currently on, and offered to...share someone else's land with...themselves?

Well in all legal sense...it was the Israeli's land. If it was truly the ottoman's land (and the Palestinians never contested that), then they have the right to make deals with the British regarding that land don't they? If it was truly British land...they have just as much a right to make deals with the jews.

That sounds like me walking into a McDonald's, finding someone eating, and offering to share their food with them. And McDonald's officially recognized internationally that as my food.

I'd think the Palestinians would have a right to be upset?

That's a poor analogy...imagine it more like this, you own a house and a big yard...and in your yard live a bunch of squatters. 30 years later, you decide to sell your house and yard to a jewish guy...but the squatters hate jews so they try to force him out. The jewish guy has a big family though, and a big American friend, so they push the squatters into the tiniest corner of the yard where they remain to this day, upset about the whole thing.

 

[Hank77]

After WW2, the Israeli moved to the land, that the Palestinians were currently on, and offered to...share someone else's land with...themselves?

Here is a little more....
Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

 

[Non sequitur]

The Canaanites were given the land first.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

But due to defilement, they lost their right to live there.

Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Leviticus 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

How did the Israeli get there? (Were they separate from Israeli?)

 

[LoAmmi]

How did the Israeli get there? (Were they separate from Israeli?)

In the Bible? Conquest, basically. What happened in reality I'm less solid on.

 

[AV1611VET]

How did the Israeli get there? (Were they separate from Israeli?)

Abraham's progeny sojourned in Egypt (against God's will) and were captured and held hostage.

Moses led them out of Egypt, then Joshua led them back into the Promised Land (Canaan); where they should have been in the first place.

 

[Rion]

Israel does a lot of crappy stuff that one side will make excuses for, and has a lot of crappy stuff done to it, which the other side will make excuses for. The one thing I generally agree with them on is not returning the land they got from the Six Day War.

If you're ignorant of that, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt decided they were going to get rid of Israel after Russia told Egypt that Israel was going to beat them up. Israel told them to knock it off, and warned Egypt against trying to close the Tiran Straight against them again, which had resulted in conflict in the past. Syria flipped Israel off, closed the straight, and went to war. Israel then ate some spinach and went all Popeye on their rears, and took some land from all three as they chased them back home.

 

[Non sequitur]

That's a poor analogy...imagine it more like this, you own a house and a big yard...and in your yard live a bunch of squatters. 30 years later, you decide to sell your house and yard to a jewish guy...but the squatters hate jews so they try to force him out. The jewish guy has a big family though, and a big American friend, so they push the squatters into the tiniest corner of the yard where they remain to this day, upset about the whole thing.

From what I could find:

Jews and Christians came and went, as early as ~100 CE
Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire ~ 636 CE
Ottoman (Turks) captured Palestine in 1516

Some correspondence between Britain and an Arab leader about Britain recognizing Arab independence after World War I, in exchange for Arab help in fighting the Ottomans.

(Prior to the formal creation of Israel, there were Turks and Arabs, both on the land.)

My head hurts...


It really seems like it comes down to either, whomever has the power to take/hold the land does so and agreements made for who will own/run the land.

I can't see the house analogy as many "squatters" already lived there, prior to it being my house. And agreements about who gets to call it their house changed.

 

[Non sequitur]

Here is a little more....
Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

Thanks.

 

[Ana the Ist]

From what I could find:

Jews and Christians came and went, as early as ~100 CE
Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire ~ 636 CE
Ottoman (Turks) captured Palestine in 1516

Some correspondence between Britain and an Arab leader about Britain recognizing Arab independence after World War I, in exchange for Arab help in fighting the Ottomans.

(Prior to the formal creation of Israel, there were Turks and Arabs, both on the land.)

My head hurts...


It really seems like it comes down to either, whomever has the power to take/hold the land does so and agreements made for who will own/run the land.

I can't see the house analogy as many "squatters" already lived there, prior to it being my house. And agreements about who gets to call it their house changed.

In my opinion, it all has to do with whether or not those people recognized the authority of the ottoman empire...and they certainly did.

It would be like the U.S. selling off California to China...or New Mexico to Mexico...the people living there may not like the deal, but ultimately, it's not their land to deal with. It's all technically U.S. government land. So the people there have a choice...they can leave, or they can fight...but if they fight and lose its essentially over.

Ask yourself this...does the ottoman empire have the right to do with it's land as it wants?

 

[Robban]

Do you know who they bought it from?
Who was already there, if anyone?

There are three places in the land of Israel that the nations cannot say have been stolen.

Cave of Machpelah, bought and paid for by Abraham, 400 shekels silver.(in Hebron)

Josephs tomb, bought and paid for by Jacob,100 Kiseta, (In Shechem)

Temple Mount, bought and paid for by David, 400 shekel gold.(In Jerusalem)

 

[Robban]

There are three places in the land of Israel that the nations cannot say have been stolen.

Cave of Machpelah, bought and paid for by Abraham, 400 shekels silver.

Josephs tomb, bought and paid for by Jacob,

Temple Mount, bought and paid for by David, 400 shekel gold.

The whole land is promised to every Jew,

Then why not just take it?

That was Lot,s argument, when there was trouble between their shepards.

So what did Abraham say?

And how did it go for Lot?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Thanks.

So, the Palestinians were on the land, when the ottoman empire had it. That land became British territory, after WW1.

Yeah, but since the place was called Palestine, everyone there was Palestinian. This includes Jews. During the British Mandate, Arabs revolted against the British and Jewish terrorist groups did likewise, and increasingly the Arabs and Jews fought each other as well. The UN tried to broker the two state partition - one for Jews, one for Arabs. That fell apart, primarily due to the Arabs rejecting it. But the UK wanted out of the whole mess, and they weren't going to wait for a real solution, so they basically left, with nobody 'officially' in charge. Chaos naturally ensued. The Jewish state took over and Jewish partisans removed Arabs from many villages in what would have been the Arab partition. Arab countries nearby responded by attacking (as most of them had already indicated they would do, after the Palestinian Arabs rejected the partition deal).

And it has been tit for tat ever since.

More background:
Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

 

[Non sequitur]

In my opinion, it all has to do with whether or not those people recognized the authority of the ottoman empire...and they certainly did.

It would be like the U.S. selling off California to China...or New Mexico to Mexico...the people living there may not like the deal, but ultimately, it's not their land to deal with. It's all technically U.S. government land. So the people there have a choice...they can leave, or they can fight...but if they fight and lose its essentially over.

Ask yourself this...does the ottoman empire have the right to do with it's land as it wants?

Sure.

But it seems they made a deal, for helping the British fight the Ottomans, to give land to the Arabs.
"Great Britain is prepared to recognize and support the independence of the Arabs within the territories in the limits and boundaries proposed by the Sherif of Mecca"

A later agreement (between the UK and France) negated their agreement with the Arabs.

If James offered Bob something for help, then after James received the help he reneged on it, wouldn't you be in favor of Bob instead of James?