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So ... forget about it?
- Thread starter Moriah_Conquering_Wind
- Start date
So forget about repenting or trying to come back to God?
Forget any/all hope of being forgiven?
You can be nothing but an agent of Satan at that point, no matter what you do or how you feel or what you believe in?
Should persons in that situation just kill themselves in order to avoid being inadvertently and unconsciously used by the demons that control them?
Or what?
Forget any/all hope of being forgiven?
You can be nothing but an agent of Satan at that point, no matter what you do or how you feel or what you believe in?
Should persons in that situation just kill themselves in order to avoid being inadvertently and unconsciously used by the demons that control them?
Or what?
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sentipente
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Hold the phone. We cannot blame God for the misinterpretations that we hold. Take the first verse as an example. It does not say what so many believe it says, even though it could not be any clearer. Here is what most re-word it to say:
The two sound so much alike that we assume they must be the same. But there is an ocean of difference between the two. If an individual has made a conscious and informed decision to reject a position there is no information that can be provided to change that person's mind. But there is also nothing preventing that individual from changing his mind on his own. That is what the text is saying. If Christians really believed what they claim the text is saying they would have an obligation to determine whether a prospect has already fallen away before attempting to convert that prospect. The fact that they don't shows that they don't really believe it and only use it to scare others.
The two sound so much alike that we assume they must be the same. But there is an ocean of difference between the two. If an individual has made a conscious and informed decision to reject a position there is no information that can be provided to change that person's mind. But there is also nothing preventing that individual from changing his mind on his own. That is what the text is saying. If Christians really believed what they claim the text is saying they would have an obligation to determine whether a prospect has already fallen away before attempting to convert that prospect. The fact that they don't shows that they don't really believe it and only use it to scare others.
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RC_NewProtestants
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Also if you interpreted it with the give up kind of thinking it would be a statement at odds with all the other verses about repenting. And there are a good number of those both old and new testament.
But it is impossible to desire the benefits of the Grace of God if one denies the Grace of God, you can't accept what you don't believe is there.
For instance I am offering to give you a billion dollars cash if you come to my house. Now really how much effort are you really going to make to come to my house. Even if I tell you it is sweet deal!
But it is impossible to desire the benefits of the Grace of God if one denies the Grace of God, you can't accept what you don't believe is there.
For instance I am offering to give you a billion dollars cash if you come to my house. Now really how much effort are you really going to make to come to my house. Even if I tell you it is sweet deal!
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If you bes serious it will come. If you make it come only to laugh in its face and say ha ha sucker fooled you, even if I had a billion dollars I would not waste it on your sorry behind! what impact do you suppose that conduct will have on its future responses to offers of that nature, hmmm?
Now put a new twist on it. Lets say it totally believed you, wore itself out to pieces and spent its last dime to get there, and once it got there you whispered that now that it had done that it could do anything therefore it ought to be able to just walk out that door and make a billion dollars land in its lap. But of course should it follow all instructions given on making that billion dollars appear (to the best of its ability considering some of the instructions involve needing to be a foot taller or have 10x more muscle mass or be non-female or something ELSE it can do nothing about) and it does not appear, then there bes no such thing as simply finding itself unable to do that, oohhhh noooooo no no no, it must be refusing to do so out of spite. Or else it must not REALLY WANT that billion dollars, must not REALLY be sincere enough about getting it, if it "refuses" to manufacture itself what you said you had and fracking promised to give it....
Do you see where this bes going?
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For starters, what does that even mean?
A "call"???
"Respond"???
And despite whatever it might mean, what room do these verses even leave for such things?
[bible]Hebrews 10:26-27[/bible]
or even this one ...
[bible]Hebrews 12:15-17[/bible]
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JonMiller
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Did the woman who Christ saved from being stoned know that she was sinning? Did Christ still forgive her sins, and tell her to sin no more?
Most of us know we sin, except for those few who think they are perfect (And they likely aren't posting in this forum). If we didn't know we sinned, we would feel no need to repent.
JM
Most of us know we sin, except for those few who think they are perfect (And they likely aren't posting in this forum). If we didn't know we sinned, we would feel no need to repent.
JM
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Jon that has nothing to do with what it bes trying to bring up here. The woman saved from being stoned had not sinned willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth. She had not tasted the goodness of God and His power and then turned away from Him.
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Right but the writer of Hebrews seems to be adopting the notion that knowing Christ as Saviour pretty much parallels the experience of Lucifer or other angels before their fall -- in other words, pretty much bes the human equivalent to being face to face with God in His presence and thus having "no excuse". Of course the angels didn't have the Virus back then and we do, but we bes supposed to reckon ourselves immune to it once we come into faith in Christ too, right?
So yes, her being a Jew means nothing in this context. The "truth" spoken of in the verses quoted have to do with knowing JC as saviour and lord.
What world do you live in where being with Him bes up to what YOU decide? Moriah does not know any such world.
As for God deciding .... does not the existence of these verses demonstrate He has already done so?
And last but not least ...
how much of your answers here bes predicated on the fact that you, too, could conceivably fall into this category? Be honest now.
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But deliberately and knowingly? And if that bes the case, then according to this Scripture we all bes lost.
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there are very few I suspect that would deliberately reject what God is offering IF they understood everything that was being offered....
I think that sometimes we complicate the issues which leads us to misunderstanding.... added to that is the reality that we see through "a glass darkly" suggesting that even at our best we have no clue....
So here is my take, we belong to God, he uses various ways to get us to understand that fact, once we somewhat "get it" that we are his, He begins the process of trying to make us more like him....
Theological terms tend to confuse rather than enlighten IMO....
I think that sometimes we complicate the issues which leads us to misunderstanding.... added to that is the reality that we see through "a glass darkly" suggesting that even at our best we have no clue....
So here is my take, we belong to God, he uses various ways to get us to understand that fact, once we somewhat "get it" that we are his, He begins the process of trying to make us more like him....
Theological terms tend to confuse rather than enlighten IMO....
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VictorC
Jesus - that's my final answer
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That's a very big "IF".
So many times I encounter the accusation that the version of the Gospel we non-Adventists follow is nothing more than "cheap grace" that doesn't require the obedience of the law.
There is nothing "cheap" about it.
If we all understood it, we would all fall flat on our faces, knowing that there is no righeousness that we have that can add to His. As Romans 11:32 concludes:
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Attempts to add to His righteousness is failure to submit to His righteousness.
Romans 10:3-4
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Absolutely!
Ephesians 1:3-7
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace...
Victor
ps - I wanted to add to your reputation, but you have that feature disabled. You deserve a meaty slap on the back
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thanks Victor.... I guess as I have gotten older and having raised two kids I do not subscribe to the idea that some religious folks hold that every issue is simply an either/or decision.... I have witnessed my kids make decisions in which all the facts were not known and had they been known a different decision would have been made....That's a very big "IF".
So many times I encounter the accusation that the version of the Gospel we non-Adventists follow is nothing more than "cheap grace" that doesn't require the obedience of the law.
There is nothing "cheap" about it.
If we all understood it, we would all fall flat on our faces, knowing that there is no righeousness that we have that can add to His. As Romans 11:32 concludes:
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Attempts to add to His righteousness is failure to submit to His righteousness.
Romans 10:3-4
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Absolutely!
Ephesians 1:3-7
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace...
Victor
ps - I wanted to add to your reputation, but you have that feature disabled. You deserve a meaty slap on the back
I believe that God loves us. I believe that the analogy of a family is used for a reason, and that if we understood family we might get a glimpse of what He will do for us his children....
No loving parent ever disowns their child because that child disobeys, or makes a decision the parent doesn't agree with...
I think religion is partly responsible for adding confusion to something that should be simple to grasp.... and compounds this confusion with theological terms that have no meaningful definition...
For me the bottom line is this, God loves us, make him the priority, trust him to do for us all those things we cannot do for ourselves, love mercy, do the right thing (towards others as well as ourselves), and remain humble...
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
Moriah, Earlier someone mentioned the woman whom the Pharisees had entrapped in adultery and used to try to trap Jesus. Jesus told her to leave her life of sin. I have heard that this woman was Mary of Magdala. In the course of their friendship, Jesus cast seven demons out of her. I wonder if He did this all at once, or if he had to cast different demons out of her- seven times. I am sure that if Jesus had to go back seven times to cast demons out of Mary He would have done it. He would have kept doing it as long as she kept asking.
I read your response to RC's analogy of giving you a million dollars. I think your analogy is rather about someone who's been promised some kind of quick fix from Christianity, and it has not panned out that way, or if not a quick fix, at least, in some way they have not received what they were led to expect.
I want to go back to the point about Mary. Some of us are more prone to influence or even control by demons than others. Some of us may be under demonic influences and are not aware of it. Jesus says in John 6:37, "...whoever comes to me I will never drive away." Jesus knows some of us have to keep coming back to Him again and again for the same thing. I think Mary kept coming back to Jesus again and again.
I think the quote in Hebrews 6:5,6 about not being able to be brought back into repentance after falling away- really doesn't apply to someone like Mary, or someone who is more prone than the average person to demonic influence or oppression. To misapply that verse to them seems to me to be the meanest cruelty.
And as to your question, "So... just forget it?" If someone who struggles over and over with the same sins, or with demonic oppression, and if all the promises of Jesus seem to have turned up empty and disappointing for them- I would say, No. Don't just forget it. If they keep "falling away," if that's what someone would call it, I would say, "Just keep coming back. Jesus will never, never turn you away."
He did promise He would save us. He did not promise an easy path or a quick one, or that all of us would have to walk the same path or face the same obstacles.
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Wow VictorC and Stormy ... if you all "ran" religion how very different it would be (for the better) for so many of us who have been browbeaten and emotionally abused by modern-day Pharisees. VictorC your post makes this one feel HOPE.
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