Do you see cross-pollination as...

  • ...vital to Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...of equal (or almost equal) worth to Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...of less value than Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as still subject to Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as disproven by Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as less overall Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as no more or different to Evolution?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as not related to things already Evolving without it, but not refusing it?

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • ...as not related to things already Evolving, *and* refusing it?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...as not related, *but* refusing some of it (not all of it)?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Gottservant

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Yes, its me.

There is a complicated concept I want to bring your attention to: cross-pollination. It is the idea that one species can inspire another, such that its young, takes on the attributes of something foreign to the species it was born to. In one sense, you could look at it like one tree grafted on to another (tree), the one grafted onto being inspired by the original pollen, in a foreign context (the other tree). So the apple tree, buds with oranges, because the orange tree has been grafted onto it. In Evolutionary terms, the apple tree is helped with orange tree selection pressures (manifest as branches, but keeping roots).

In ape terms, having created men, could create men as children of elephants, if apes were grafted on to elephants. The cross-pollination would strengthen the elephant and the man, the man for the elephant's root, the elephant for the variation of herd. It's not hard to imagine that men as children of elephants would be greater men, better hearing, further range, stronger memory - the point is it would be a direct application of the need for individuals to change something. This is true at least for survival.

What I don't understand, is why you would not do this in spirit, with other species in mind, but in truth, for the species you already have? When you look at man, you don't think "Well, this man's evolution is almost up! Graft him on to something else!!" No you think, "here is a creature that needs inspiration - direct him in what is wise!" There is no thinking that the grafting could kill him, though certainly it could, just that he has already found something that is good even "Evolutionarily" speaking. Scripturally speaking it is only failing to do something with faith, if you refuse the work that goes with your design - grafting establishes a little work, if you don't resent the object changing (that means there is less chance you will have no praise for God, but also less motive to maintain it).

This leaves open one possibility: life! Life continues whether there is grafting or not, Evolution or not. What is interesting, is where one is inspired with the other - can you see that? If you are inspired, you can have your Evolution and your grafting and be informed of the value of both - through the powerful council of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit remains committed to the sharing of the Word, for the love of the point: He begins the works of everyone that has faith. He is able to begin the work of Evolution, and begin the work of cross-pollination - if we trust Him, we will be able to make something of that and even more! This doesn't even need a leader, someone to remain in place sharing it, from beginning to end - a hive mind Evolutionarily to begin with, will be enough.

Is a hive mind evolved? I guess that is for you to answer - my hope is that you will make more sense (of what you believed yourself to begin with, if nothing else).

Your Evolution, prevail.
 

Gottservant

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Definition of cross-pollination
1: the transfer of pollen from one flower to the stigma of another

I don’t think that is what you mean. Perhaps you should use different terminology.

I mean in a "grafting" sense.

The terminology is fine.

I think conflating pollination with cross-pollination, may confuse people, which is what you have done here? (there is a term "Xenogamy", which is a natural example of cross-pollination, without grafting, but I think theoretically the terms are interchangeable in the context in which I mean them)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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There is a complicated concept I want to bring your attention to: cross-pollination. It is the idea that one species can inspire another, such that its young, takes on the attributes of something foreign to the species it was born to. In one sense, you could look at it like one tree grafted on to another (tree), the one grafted onto being inspired by the original pollen, in a foreign context (the other tree). So the apple tree, buds with oranges, because the orange tree has been grafted onto it. In Evolutionary terms, the apple tree is helped with orange tree selection pressures (manifest as branches, but keeping roots).

In ape terms, having created men, could create men as children of elephants, if apes were grafted on to elephants. The cross-pollination would strengthen the elephant and the man, the man for the elephant's root, the elephant for the variation of herd. It's not hard to imagine that men as children of elephants would be greater men, better hearing, further range, stronger memory - the point is it would be a direct application of the need for individuals to change something. This is true at least for survival.

What I don't understand, is why you would not do this in spirit, with other species in mind, but in truth, for the species you already have? When you look at man, you don't think "Well, this man's evolution is almost up! Graft him on to something else!!" No you think, "here is a creature that needs inspiration - direct him in what is wise!" There is no thinking that the grafting could kill him, though certainly it could, just that he has already found something that is good even "Evolutionarily" speaking. Scripturally speaking it is only failing to do something with faith, if you refuse the work that goes with your design - grafting establishes a little work, if you don't resent the object changing (that means there is less chance you will have no praise for God, but also less motive to maintain it).

This leaves open one possibility: life! Life continues whether there is grafting or not, Evolution or not. What is interesting, is where one is inspired with the other - can you see that? If you are inspired, you can have your Evolution and your grafting and be informed of the value of both - through the powerful council of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit remains committed to the sharing of the Word, for the love of the point: He begins the works of everyone that has faith. He is able to begin the work of Evolution, and begin the work of cross-pollination - if we trust Him, we will be able to make something of that and even more! This doesn't even need a leader, someone to remain in place sharing it, from beginning to end - a hive mind Evolutionarily to begin with, will be enough.

Is a hive mind evolved? I guess that is for you to answer - my hope is that you will make more sense (of what you believed yourself to begin with, if nothing else).

Your Evolution, prevail.
Grafting is not evolution.
 
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Mr Laurier

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I mean in a "grafting" sense.

The terminology is fine.

I think conflating pollination with cross-pollination, may confuse people, which is what you have done here? (there is a term "Xenogamy", which is a natural example of cross-pollination, without grafting, but I think theoretically the terms are interchangeable in the context in which I mean them)
Grafting is not cross pollination.
The terms are NOT interchangeable.
Grafting an ape to an elephant, gets you an infection.
 
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Gottservant

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Grafting is not cross pollination.
The terms are NOT interchangeable.
Sure they are, one is natural, the other artificial - but they both function the same.

Grafting an ape to an elephant, gets you an infection.

A male infection? Sorry, I don't think you are applying your theory?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Meaning what?

You do or do not see the point?

Evolution can't improve, something that can improve in a different context?
Evolution tends to make organisms better adapted to their environment; that's the only sense of 'improvement' it has. This can mean complex organisms becoming simpler and losing functionality.

As Mr Laurier said, grafting and cross-pollination are quite different. They don't function the same.
 
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Gottservant

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Evolution tends to make organisms better adapted to their environment; that's the only sense of 'improvement' it has. This can mean complex organisms becoming simpler and losing functionality.

As Mr Laurier said, grafting and cross-pollination are quite different. They don't function the same.

One is more extensive than the other, that doesn't make them fundamentally different.
 
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Larniavc

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One is more extensive than the other, that doesn't make them fundamentally different.
They are fundamentally different. This discussion will not get passed that fact.
 
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Mr Laurier

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Sure they are, one is natural, the other artificial - but they both function the same.
No.
BOTH can be artificial.
They do NOT function the same.



A male infection? Sorry, I don't think you are applying your theory?
No. A BLOOD infection. Fatal and painful.
What theory am I supposed to be applying?
 
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Shemjaza

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Yes, its me.

There is a complicated concept I want to bring your attention to: cross-pollination. It is the idea that one species can inspire another, such that its young, takes on the attributes of something foreign to the species it was born to. In one sense, you could look at it like one tree grafted on to another (tree), the one grafted onto being inspired by the original pollen, in a foreign context (the other tree). So the apple tree, buds with oranges, because the orange tree has been grafted onto it. In Evolutionary terms, the apple tree is helped with orange tree selection pressures (manifest as branches, but keeping roots).

In ape terms, having created men, could create men as children of elephants, if apes were grafted on to elephants. The cross-pollination would strengthen the elephant and the man, the man for the elephant's root, the elephant for the variation of herd. It's not hard to imagine that men as children of elephants would be greater men, better hearing, further range, stronger memory - the point is it would be a direct application of the need for individuals to change something. This is true at least for survival.

What I don't understand, is why you would not do this in spirit, with other species in mind, but in truth, for the species you already have? When you look at man, you don't think "Well, this man's evolution is almost up! Graft him on to something else!!" No you think, "here is a creature that needs inspiration - direct him in what is wise!" There is no thinking that the grafting could kill him, though certainly it could, just that he has already found something that is good even "Evolutionarily" speaking. Scripturally speaking it is only failing to do something with faith, if you refuse the work that goes with your design - grafting establishes a little work, if you don't resent the object changing (that means there is less chance you will have no praise for God, but also less motive to maintain it).

This leaves open one possibility: life! Life continues whether there is grafting or not, Evolution or not. What is interesting, is where one is inspired with the other - can you see that? If you are inspired, you can have your Evolution and your grafting and be informed of the value of both - through the powerful council of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit remains committed to the sharing of the Word, for the love of the point: He begins the works of everyone that has faith. He is able to begin the work of Evolution, and begin the work of cross-pollination - if we trust Him, we will be able to make something of that and even more! This doesn't even need a leader, someone to remain in place sharing it, from beginning to end - a hive mind Evolutionarily to begin with, will be enough.

Is a hive mind evolved? I guess that is for you to answer - my hope is that you will make more sense (of what you believed yourself to begin with, if nothing else).

Your Evolution, prevail.

Firstly grafting between different animals only works with extremely similar animals with extensive surgical and chemical intervention as well as maintenance.

Secondly grafting has nothing to do with evolution. It doesn't change their genetics, so it has no bearing on the evolution of the species.


And of course, inspiration as a descriptor for evolution is fundamentally wrong because evolution doesn't happen to individuals and isn't a choice.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The cross-pollination would strengthen the elephant and the man, the man for the elephant's root, the elephant for the variation of herd.

As others have noted, grafting doesn't relate at all to evolution. For starters, a "graft" is not transmissible through genetic inheritance.

(Next, elephants don't have 'roots', as they are not plants.)

So let's talk about grafting and roots for a moment in a place where it is common.

Some years ago I wanted to replace an old, end-of-life, flowering fruit tree (the kind that don't produce any edible fruit) with a smaller fruit tree. The old tree was too big for my modest yard so I wanted a smaller tree. I found a fruit tree on "dwarf root stock" that would limit how large it would get (3-4 m tall, about half the height of the old tree). To create that tree, the nursery took the top part of a tree of the particular variety I wanted and essentially replaced its roots with a naturally smaller tree's roots so that it would not grow as tall. The roots and the leaves of my singular tree are genetically different individuals. However, that configuration doesn't reproduce.

If you took a seed from my tree and planted it you would get only the top part of the fruit variety I chose. The offspring would not be a dwarf naturally. Grafts are properties of individuals only.

Fun fact: Nearly all wine grapes in the world are grafted. How did this happen? A fungal root disease from North America spread in Europe during the 18th century and the only solution was to replant all of the vines on rootstock from American grapes since they were resistant to it. But the grape growers need to do this for every vine they plant manually. It doesn't happen on its own.
 
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Gottservant

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Yes, more or less.

The mixing of somewhat different genetic strains can produce beneficial combinations that result in heterosis or 'hybrid vigour'.

And you have been keeping this from me, this whole time???

Be that what it may: are you saying "hybrid vigor" is enhanced by faith in Evolution? Or that it may be more easily believed because of Evolution?
 
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Shemjaza

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And you have been keeping this from me, this whole time???

Be that what it may: are you saying "hybrid vigor" is enhanced by faith in Evolution? Or that it may be more easily believed because of Evolution?
No one is saying that.

Evolution is not a matter of faith.

Inherited traits aren't a choice and aren't affected by beliefs.
 
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