So can we be more merciful than God?

[Shrewd Manager]

My posture was that I hoped he was right.

Now why do I get the sense most brethren don't respond in that way? We need to pray for all those harbouring hell in their hearts.

It seems that those who are able to do the deep Bible study and are familiar with advanced study tools, especially with Greek and Hebrew, are more likely to be open to it.

Possibly. The Bible's saturated with it. I mean 'His Salvation is the a to z'. It's the idee fixe, the golden thread, the substructure of the Bible, call it what you will. A person's really got to wilfully reject it once it's presented to them...unless they're under a strong delusion.

Too many in the church are not able and unfortunately at the mercy of leadership to determine what they believe.

Yea, it's put perfectly by our Lord to the Pharisees in Matt 23:15 imho:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

 

[public hermit]

Now why do I get the sense most brethren don't respond in that way? We need to pray for all those harbouring hell in their hearts.



Possibly. The Bible's saturated with it. I mean 'His Salvation is the a to z'. It's the idee fixe, the golden thread, the substructure of the Bible, call it what you will. A person's really got to wilfully reject it once it's presented to them...unless they're under a strong delusion.



Yea, it's put perfectly by our Lord to the Pharisees in Matt 23:15 imho:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

I think hell has its place. My question is whether or not it is remedial. I'm completely disengaged from the idea of divine punishment, and human for that matter. Moreover, if hell is remedial then the implication is that it need not be eternal.

I think there's a reason we see early Greek speaking Christians understanding hell to be remedial- Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and his wise, older sister Macrina. I think they read various passages as speaking to an "age" and not an "eternity." That's a well-worn argument.

A punishing fire is unbecoming of a good God. Purifying fire seems highly likely, on the other hand.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think hell has its place. My question is whether or not it is remedial. I'm completely disengaged from the idea of divine punishment, and human for that matter. Moreover, if hell is remedial then the implication is that it need not be eternal.

I think there's a reason we see early Greek speaking Christians understanding hell to be remedial- Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and his wise, older sister Macrina. I think they read various passages as speaking to an "age" and not an "eternity." That's a well-worn argument.

A punishing fire is unbecoming of a good God. Purifying fire seems highly likely, on the other hand.

It's no mystery. If anyone wants to know how a story ends, they peek at the last pages of the book. The Bible's no different. John's final vision in Revelation undeniably supports the idea that the Lake of Fire is remedial - and fulfils prophecy as per the final chapters of Isaiah.

Follow the vicissitudes of the nations.

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

Looks like curtains for the enemies of God...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Next, heaven is descends to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and we're told...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honour into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified, so they can enter the City of God, since we're advised of the conditions of entry:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more. Once they proceed through the ever-open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and then admitted to heaven purified to worship the Almighty and to be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3).

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our job is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and so ultimately: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)

So let's start by encouraging each other! Cast out that unbelief in God's perfect plan to be all in all.

 

[Saint Steven]

… They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

Looks like curtains for the enemies of God...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Next, heaven is descends to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and we're told...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honour into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. ...

Great post. Thanks.
In Rev 20:9, Strong's defines "devoured", or "consumed" as eaten up. Definition below.
As if God ingested them. But taken into himself, none the less.

I'm getting the mental picture of corn on the cob. The armies lined up and God consuming them bite by bite. - lol

consumed
κατέφαγεν (katephagen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2719: To eat up, eat till it is finished, devour, squander, annoy, injure. From kata and esthio; to eat down, i.e. Devour.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm getting the mental picture of corn on the cob. The armies lined up and God consuming them bite by bite. - lol

Well, I hear the Hebrew letter for fire is Shin, and which also means teeth (can you see em?):

Just a shot in the dark, Strongs tells us that the word for corn (ear) is שִׁבֹּל shibbôl, which contains the shin as the first letter...and can be also shibboleth (applying the aleph-tav Jesus suffix), according to this Jewish site:

The word shibboleth reflects a flowing stream and a wealth of growing grain, while the word sibboleth reflects burdens, servitude and hardly ever enough.
The amazing name shibboleth: meaning and etymology

So I tend to the view you're being guided by the spirit there Steve.

 

[Saint Steven]

So I tend to the view you're being guided by the spirit there Steve.

Thanks. Try this on for size.

It occurred to me today that when you apply fire to corn you get popcorn. A metamorphosis of sorts. The kernels expand into something new and wonderful.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thanks. Try this on for size.

It occurred to me today that when you apply fire to corn you get popcorn. A metamorphosis of sorts. The kernels expand into something new and wonderful.

Nice one! Popping as they rejoice in fiery regeneration - the lame will leap for joy like a deer.
You could make the grade as the laughing prophet at this rate.