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So, can we be free from hate?

KCKID

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Dear KCKID,
The account of Sodom says what it says, why do people persist in trying to claim it doesn't implicate homosexuality? It does. The latest dispute on the other thread again claims it is gang rape, yet the text doesnt say gang rape, its says 'yada' to know in this case carnally. Lot offers his daughters without saying thats wicked, so even if one likes to think of this specifically as gang rape the question is why is male-female gang an accpetable alternative to wicked same-sex gang rape.

You are teaching falsehoods here, Phinehas. All the men of the city, young and old, came to HARM (not to appease their sexual appetite) Lot's guests. Whether it would be perceived as gang rape or not it certainly had NOTHING to do with the homosexuality issues that we are dealing with on this forum. Any you know it! Shame on you for perpetuating the homosexual myth in regard to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now many including myself have been through all the feeble objections to the scriptures which exclude same sex-sex unions such as Genesis 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 7, Hebrews 13, and all the feeble objections to the indirect and direct condemnations such as Genesis 19, Judges 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 and as many Christians now know, it represents much more than a difference of opinion but a major rebellion against the truth of the word of God. Only once when gay and lesbian theologians have disputed all these passages do they try and claim the Bible says nothing about homosexuality, so they havnt got a leg to stand on anyway. Such rank disbelief is not sustainable in the Christian church.

You're trying to hoodwink the gullible with your 'all these passages' that is supposedly pertaining to homosexuality, Phinehas. It's a lie. Again you know it. As for the Christian church, it basically lost the plot ages ago and few Christians seem to have a clue what TRUE Christianity is all about. Much of it amounts to the blind leading the blind. Paul has become the 'Jesus' of mainstream Christianity and his words over-ride those of Jesus. Jesus says NOTHING about homosexuality. NOR do other scriptures that refer to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
—Ezekiel 16:49-50


This idea is paralleled in the Gospels when Jesus compares an inhospitable reception to Sodom:

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
—Matthew: 10:14-15

How come homosexuality or 'sex with men' is not mentioned here, Phinehas? These texts are referring to the sin's of Sodom and Gomorrah.










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LightHorseman

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Yep . . .one and the same.

Hmm... I guess thats like those mad old biddies who claim the Bible is inerrant and unchangeing, but that the bit about not suffering women to teach doesn't apply to them.

c. any of the above for the latest accusations of cherrypicking
 
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Texas Lynn

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Think, why is that passage in genesis there?

It's by no means certain the Sodomean toughs sought to rape the angels. At best one could say they called them "queers" or other epithets which implied they were passive males in male-male anal intercourse--IOW just as teenage boys in my neighborhood and yours would taunt the new kid in town.

Another question, what is the metaphorical reasoning of Lot's daughters taking advantage of him?

This episode is a comic relief scene after the destruction and fleeing of Sodom as is common in ghetto librettos like this. Showing the stupidity and drunkedness of an old man and two not-the-brightest-candles-in-the-room young women is a common device. It could easily be made into a movie starring Anthony Hopkins and the Hilton sisters.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Is this the same Phineas2 who claims that the Bible means exactly what it says, and rails against people interpreting it, giving it meanings not implicit in the text?

A more correct description would be he claims the Bible means exactly what HE says.
 
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Apollo Celestio

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It's by no means certain the Sodomean toughs sought to rape the angels. At best one could say they called them "queers" or other epithets which implied they were passive males in male-male anal intercourse--IOW just as teenage boys in my neighborhood and yours would taunt the new kid in town.
They said "come out so we can have sex with them" ..



This episode is a comic relief scene after the destruction and fleeing of Sodom as is common in ghetto librettos like this. Showing the stupidity and drunkedness of an old man and two not-the-brightest-candles-in-the-room young women is a common device. It could easily be made into a movie starring Anthony Hopkins and the Hilton sisters.
Hahaha lol, that was a funny description..
 
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LightHorseman

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Hey, I can accept the men of Sodom wanted to rape the angels.

2 points, however...

1. Homosexual rape and consentual homosexual sex are no more the same thing than heterosexual rape and consentual heterosexual sex are. So, condemn Sodom for homosexual rape all you like, doesn't make homosexuality a bad thing.

2. Is raping an angel comparable to raping ANY human, same sex or hetero?
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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Hey, I can accept the men of Sodom wanted to rape the angels.

2 points, however...

1. Homosexual rape and consentual homosexual sex are no more the same thing than heterosexual rape and consentual heterosexual sex are. So, condemn Sodom for homosexual rape all you like, doesn't make homosexuality a bad thing.
instead of applying the sodom text as a 'homosexual rape' issue, its easy to parallel this to romans chapter 1, to see that God's judgment against a people is by giving them over to the lusts of their hearts, the example specified is same-sex sex. The inhospitality and depravity was rampant in these cities, and that encounter is just an example of how much so.
2. Is raping an angel comparable to raping ANY human, same sex or hetero?

It doesn't really matter, because the men of sodom thought they were men, and referred to them as such. God bless.
 
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KCKID

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Um, thats fine, but again... there is nothing in the Soddom story that relates to consentual homosexual sex.

Let's face it. This entire Sodom & Gomorrah thing is just a homosexual 'beat up' by some Christians. It is most irresponsible for these Christians to perpetuate the lie that God destroyed these cities because of rampant homosexuality. This notion is not based on fact at all. Gang-rape is the best that can be gained from this story.

By the way, is this story even true or - as some might say - might it be classified as "yet another Genesis fable?" The 'Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt' part of the story seems to be somewhat fanciful even if the alleged 'we want sex with angels' is not.
 
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P

Phinehas2

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Dear Jet_A_Jockey
instead of applying the sodom text as a 'homosexual rape' issue, its easy to parallel this to romans chapter 1, to see that God's judgment against a people is by giving them over to the lusts of their hearts, the example specified is same-sex sex. The inhospitality and depravity was rampant in these cities, and that encounter is just an example of how much so
Exactly. Sodom had sinned greatly against God and the attitude of the men of the city to warning Lot they would treat him worse, they were arrogant, senseless, rutheless and heartless and approved of it all as in Romans 1:30 "slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." The crucial bit is Romans 2, which warns believers not to assume we aren't also guilty of some of these things... its quite a severe warning.

It doesn't really matter, because the men of sodom thought they were men, and referred to them as such. God bless.
This is a good point, Whilst Lot who was righteous might have known the men visitors were angels, he could have offered himself to the men to satisfy their desire for sex with men, but he offered his virgin daughters.
No wonder sodomy became the word for same-sex practice.
 
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David Brider

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Men wanting sex with men is same-sex sex...


There's a lot more to homosexuality than "men wanting sex with men".

the consensual bit is your hopeful addition and not in the story.

There's a reason the consensual bit isn't in the story - the story isn't about consensual sex.

David.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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Um, thats fine, but again... there is nothing in the Soddom story that relates to consentual homosexual sex.

theres nothing in scripture that supports any sort of consentual homosexual sex either. To throw another angle at it, ever considered the ramnification of assisted suicide, or sadomasochism? If one has the Spirit, he may or may not be convicted of various things. It seems to vary person to person, so to each man work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. I'm just trying to explain what the book says, because on that we disagree. This has absolutely nothing to do with the people it affects, other than an attempt to clarify an issue or text, as each group throws their spin at it. Often times, those who are happy with what they believe will continue to put their fingers in their ears and go 'lalalalala', regardless of whether the knowledge given to them is discerned or not.

One thing I've noticed in these debates is that the focus varies from person to person. Many have adapted humanistic ideals, and put them on a pedestal above or co-equal to their religion. We aren't here to please ourselves, we are here to please God. We aren't here to glory in ourselves, we are here to give glory to God. We aren't here to thank ourselves, we are here to thank God.

We are still human, and we fail. We let our own concerns take center stage sometimes, and we fall. I'm not perfect by any means, but I know what my goal is.

That being said, I'm not the one who wrote the bible, and I'm not the one who is the judge.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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Hello Phinehas2,


This is a good point, Whilst Lot who was righteous might have known the men visitors were angels, he could have offered himself to the men to satisfy their desire for sex with men, but he offered his virgin daughters.
No wonder sodomy became the word for same-sex practice.

From what I've studied on this, interestingly enough, many jewish rabbi's console this issue by saying that Lot was suffering the effects of the depravity of the city, and this is why he made such a rash decision. Personally, I have a hard time understanding the mind of an ancient man, in a time when men and women were put into, or put themselves into slavery or forced labor. And a time when children were seen as assets, basically as goods or 'in house' workers, who helped with all the chores and things of the family. The daughters were bought with a price by the highest bidder, so to speak, so it all seemed to revolve around the economic stability of the household. That includes the well being of the head of the family, as its often seen that the patriarch was considered as the highest part. So, with that in mind, I can rationalize why he'd do such a thing. Would I? No way, but why are we so quick to judge when we are all guilty of making hasty decisions?
 
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texastig

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God loves the sinner but not the sin. Those who commit homosexual acts, be it Christian or not, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You can find that in the Bible at Gal 5:19-21.
The Christian can repent of his/her sin and by their choice turn from homosexual sex.


Are we hateful no matter what, because we don't accept homosexual sex? I'm talking about people here in this forum and their attitudes. Is being loving and being intolerant of sin impossible as what we would call engaging in unrepentant sin yet claiming to follow the Lord? I hope this is a pointless question.
 
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IamRedeemed

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:amen:

As is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

God loves the sinner but not the sin. Those who commit homosexual acts, be it Christian or not, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You can find that in the Bible at Gal 5:19-21.
The Christian can repent of his/her sin and by their choice turn from homosexual sex.
 
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