So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

[46AND2]

This is just some advice. Read the bible.

You have the free choice to make any choice you want to in the world created by God. Why don't you just come out and say you don't want to believe in the God of the bible and stop beating around the bush with illogical scenarios and making up things that the Bible does not teach?

You couldn't be more wrong. I absolutely want to believe in the God of the Bible, if he's real. I fought for more than a decade to retain my ever-dwindling faith.

I'm not making up anything. I'm trying to show you one of the many reasons I can't believe in the God of the Bible.

The Bible teaches omniscience, omnipotence, creation of the universe AND free will (according to most Christians, anyway), and these things cannot logically coincide.

 

[EternalDragon]

You sure about that? Let's see, attributes I am assigning God in my scenario:

1. Omniscient. Check, in the Bible.
2. Omnipotent. Check, in the Bible.
3. Creator of the Universe. Check, in the Bible.

That's it. It's all there.

What I'm saying is...what the Bible teaches about God, is illogical. It makes no sense.



Yet the Bible teaches omniscience, omnipotence, and creation of the universe. I guess we are all just marionettes.



You still have not answered my key question: Yes or no: Can we make a choice that surprises God?

You misunderstand because you are attributing more to the definition of the words. All powerful and all knowing does not mean all controlling.

We can't make a choice that surprises God because he has already seen it. Knowing the future has nothing to do with our free choice in that future.

 

[lasthero]

We can't make a choice that surprises God because he has already seen it.

Let's say God sees me eating an apple in the future, and tells me about this. Could I, then, choose not to eat the apple?

 

[EternalDragon]

You couldn't be more wrong. I absolutely want to believe in the God of the Bible, if he's real. I fought for more than a decade to retain my ever-dwindling faith.

I'm not making up anything. I'm trying to show you one of the many reasons I can't believe in the God of the Bible.

The Bible teaches omniscience, omnipotence, creation of the universe AND free will (according to most Christians, anyway), and these things cannot logically coincide.

They can coincide just fine. The best thing to do for someone is to make them free.

What you are saying is that God makes you decide to eat eggs for breakfast, makes your hand choose what coffee to drink, makes you drive to work, make you call off sick, makes a man rob a house....that is completely illogical.

Good and evil can and do operate freely in the world God created. That is free will. You can see it plainly operating together. It's a necessary balance with God still being fully all knowing and fully all powerful.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Unlike scientists today, who won't even admit they are sinners.

To be a sinner you must admit there is a god. You jumped the gun on that statement entirely. Sin is a crime against a deity.

 

[AV1611VET]

To be a sinner you must admit there is a god. You jumped the gun on that statement entirely. Sin is a crime against a deity.

Hmmm ... you got me on that one!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[EternalDragon]

Let's say God sees me eating an apple in the future, and tells me about this. Could I, then, choose not to eat the apple?

But what is the purpose? You are proposing some sort of imaginary paradox.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

If the book of Genesis is not meant to be taken literally why stop other books of the Bible to be the same?

 

[CabVet]

But what is the purpose? You are proposing some sort of imaginary paradox.

That's what brains are for.

P.S.: It is not imaginary if you believe in the Bible, which is full of those paradoxes.

 

[46AND2]

You misunderstand because you are attributing more to the definition of the words. All powerful and all knowing does not mean all controlling.

It does when it is combined with the creator of everything. He "controlled" every decision ever made, by choosing to create a specific universe. All decisions were made by God, when he chose to create the universe in which everyone makes exactly the decisions he created them to make.

We can't make a choice that surprises God because he has already seen it. Knowing the future has nothing to do with our free choice in that future.

So, if we can't make a choice which surprises God, what choice do we have? It may APPEAR that we have a choice, but we really do not.

 

[lasthero]

But what is the purpose? You are proposing some sort of imaginary paradox.

Well, yeah. That's the point of a hypothetical question.

So back to the question - could I choose to not eat the apple, even though God saw the future and said I would be eating the apple?

 

[EternalDragon]

Well, yeah. That's the point of a hypothetical question.

So back to the question - could I choose to not eat the apple, even though God saw the future and said I would be eating the apple?

First you have to give me the reason that God chose to appear in a certain period in your past and tell you your future.

 

[CabVet]

First you have to give me the reason that God chose to appear in a certain period in your past and tell you your future.

God can do anything, he felt like telling me about the future. Or to make it easier for you, "God works in mysterious ways". Or even easier, same reason why he told Sarah Palin to run for president.

 

[46AND2]

They can coincide just fine. The best thing to do for someone is to make them free.

Show me how. This is just an empty assertion.

What you are saying is that God makes you decide to eat eggs for breakfast, makes your hand choose what coffee to drink, makes you drive to work, make you call off sick, makes a man rob a house....that is completely illogical.

That is correct. God made all those choices for us when he decided to create this specific universe, as opposed to one where I decide to eat cereal, drink tea instead of coffee, walk to work....

Good and evil can and do operate freely in the world God created. That is free will. You can see it plainly operating together. It's a necessary balance with God still being fully all knowing and fully all powerful.

Why does there have to be a balance of good and evil? That is ridiculous. That is what fantasy books tell you.

 

[46AND2]

But what is the purpose? You are proposing some sort of imaginary paradox.

Because it illustrates the illogic of free will given by an omniscient, omnipotent creator. It creates paradoxes like this (for every single decision, I might add). That is what makes it illogical.

 

[EternalDragon]

It does when it is combined with the creator of everything. He "controlled" every decision ever made, by choosing to create a specific universe. All decisions were made by God, when he chose to create the universe in which everyone makes exactly the decisions he created them to make.



So, if we can't make a choice which surprises God, what choice do we have? It may APPEAR that we have a choice, but we really do not.

No where does it state in the bible that God created our decisions for us nor does it say we don't have free will. Again, everything you are saying is contrary to the Bible and clear logic. It is contrary to what we clearly observe.

Just come out and say you don't believe. It would be your free choice and would eliminate this free choice of dancing around the forum.

 

[EternalDragon]

Show me how. This is just an empty assertion.



That is correct. God made all those choices for us when he decided to create this specific universe, as opposed to one where I decide to eat cereal, drink tea instead of coffee, walk to work....



Why does there have to be a balance of good and evil? That is ridiculous. That is what fantasy books tell you.

So God made you write those words above? Is that what you really believe? God is making you write things? You are not choosing the letters to hit on the keyboard?

 

[CabVet]

So God made you write those words above? Is that what you really believe? God is making you write things? You are not choosing the letters to hit on the keyboard?

Hard, isn't it? No, that is not what he believes. That is what is described in the Bible.

 

[lasthero]

First you have to give me the reason that God chose to appear in a certain period in your past and tell you your future.

Why do you feel that's important? He does that in the Bible.

If it helps, I'll use a Biblical example - God (well, angels speaking for God, if memory serves, but you get me) told Sarah that she would give birth to children despite her old age. Now, the Bible doesn't say anything about her having virgin births, so we can reasonably assume that she had these children through sexual intercourse.

Knowing what God said, could Sarah have chosen not to have sex, therefore never giving birth to anyone? Note, I'm not saying she did make that decision, obviously, or that she even would make it, being a faithful servant of God - could she? Was that an option available to her?

 

[46AND2]

So God made you write those words above? Is that what you really believe? God is making you write things? You are not choosing the letters to hit on the keyboard?

Well, hypothetically speaking, yes. I don't actually believe any god exists to be controlling me that way....but God could have created any one of INFINITE universes. One where you make a typo, one where you use a voice recognition software, but he made this specific one, where I choose to write every single letter I do. He knew I would write this paragraph exactly as I am. No matter how much I may change, delete, whatever, he knew that, so I was destined to do that.

If it helps you to understand what I'm saying...instead of saying God is making me type these words. Think of it in past tense. He made me type these words when he created the universe.