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I understood it quite well.Clearly you did not understand the analogy. Jesus is the "Mafia".
And creationists should admit that they do not understand logic. That is all that needs to be said.
My point is, there is room for free will here.Clearly there is no room for free will here. Either join the Mafia or be shot!
Or the interpretation of the evidence is wrong, or you are trying to suppress the truth, or ……The common young earth creationist literal interpretation of Genesis is absolutely contradicted by the evidence.
So either the Bible is wrong, or it should not be interpreted literally.
I understood it quite well.
His point was:
My point is, there is room for free will here.
Jesus freely chose to be shot/crucified rather than join the Mafia/Pharisees.
We are discussing free will, not the Mafia.
Yes.To clarify, imagine this scenario if you will: God appears to me today and says "I saw the future and I see that tomorrow you will eat an apple". The question was, knowing that, can I decide not to eat the apple?
Can you back up your claim about the Bible with the Bible?Hard, isn't it? No, that is not what he believes. That is what is described in the Bible.So God made you write those words above? Is that what you really believe? God is making you write things? You are not choosing the letters to hit on the keyboard?
My answer is yes.You disappoint me... The answer would be yes if there was such thing free will.
Can you back up your claim about the Bible with the Bible?Here is a Biblical lesson for you: free will means that God knows our future but decides to let us change it (if we chose to do so).
That, by definition, is a prophecy.I never said it was a prophecy, a command or anything of the sort. All I said was that God saw into the future and told me that tomorrow I would eat an apple.
If God saw it already happened, how can it be pre-determined?If everything that Gods sees in the future happens, then our destinies (I really don't like that word) are pre-determined and there is no such thing as free will.
Logic fail.If I decide not to eat the apple, but tomorrow I eat it anyways, there is no free will.
Just as the actions are in the future, the decision to choose those actions is also in the future.This is just too much. So, we have free will to decide whatever we want but all of our decisions are embedded? This is neither the secular nor the Biblical free will.Your freewill is embedded in your future.
I think we can all agree with that.if you cannot change your decision you do not have free will.
Actually, we do get it. You are the one not getting it.You still don't get it, do you?
That's only because the omnipresent God is already back in time. He is also in present time and future time.Nobody needs to go back in time.
But "2." is possible.Here, once more to see if you understand:
1. God comes to you today and says: tomorrow you will eat an apple.
2. With the information provided to you today you decide not to eat an apple tomorrow.
If 2 is not possible and you have to eat the apple, there is no freewill.
or you are trying to suppress the truth
You are making a very good point in favor of free will.If God is truly eternal and if he's truly all present and not bound by time, then talking about God 'going back in time' makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He can't 'go back in time' because he's already present in the past, just as he's present in the...present, and just as he's present in the future.
Yes, but you can change your mind and choose to eat it eventually.Let's say God sees me eating an apple in the future, and tells me about this. Could I, then, choose not to eat the apple?
Environmental pressures.But I haven't already made the decision, that's the whole problem. From God's perspective, I have - he can see the future as well as the present. But now that he's given me the knowledge of what I will do in the future, I have the option of simply NOT doing it, an option I would not have had if he never told me anything. And if I choose not to do the thing he told me I was going to do, it does create a paradox - but what's to stop me from creating this paradox, now that I know what will trigger it? What would stop me from not eating the apple?
I was speaking from your perspective. In that case God would be speaking to you in your past....so to speak.
Good discussion though because you make a good point that God is essentially outside of time. So if God tells you what will happen it has essentially already happened. Just not for you. That entire concept has no effect on free will. It can exist along with God's all knowing and all powerful attributes.
I'm not arguing for or against free will.You are making a very good point in favor of free will.
Yes, but you will still choose to eat it eventually.
What if he just left the environment?But because of environmental pressures Peter then decided to betray Jesus.
Then what are you arguing for or against?I'm not arguing for or against free will.
You can change your mind and make a different choice.Why? If I choose not to eat it, why will I still choose to eat it?
If you made the decision to eat it, then you made yourself eat it.What's going to make me eat it?
He didn't.What if he just left the environment?
You are still free to choose to comply or free to choose not to.Great -- care to discuss our "free will" now?
A "choice" made with a gun to one's head is hardly "free," don't you think?
You are still free to choose to comply or free to choose not to.
Then what are you arguing for or against?
You can change your mind and make a different choice.
If you made the decision to eat it, then you made yourself eat it.
He didn't.
Because it is a story written by bronze age people who believed the earth to be flat?
There is no evidence that most of the people during the bronze age were ignorant.
Sorry but when a religion says: "either you worship our God or be damned for eternity in fire and brimstone"; This is clearly a case of one not having free will. Either join us or be shot. Sorry but I would rather be shot than to succumb to blackmail.I understood it quite well.
His point was:
My point is, there is room for free will here.
Jesus freely chose to be shot/crucified rather than join the Mafia/Pharisees.
We are discussing free will, not the Mafia.
How do you know they thought the earth wa flat?
The Bible does not say it is.
Do you take that "freedom" to your boss?Sorry but when a religion says: "either you worship our God or be damned for eternity in fire and brimstone"; This is clearly a case of one not having free will. Either join us or be shot. Sorry but I would rather be shot than to succumb to blackmail.
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