so anyone can be self-ordained?

[Gregory Thompson]

in the protestant circle, anyone can set up their own church and claim to be a servant of God. As long as they have followers they are the person in charge, free to set up any kind of system. How does that differ from the roman catholic system? at least in RC or eastern Christianity there must be a hierarchy, one must be ordained to be able to minister. otherwise, any wolf or man with ambition can create a business to set up their own church.

Not just anyone, but people who do tend to be regarded as starting a cult.

 

[hedrick]

I don’t know that I’d count individual churches, but for many Protestants the basic unit of the church is the congregation. Denominations exist to handle some cooperative tasks. There are a large group of nondenominational congregations. They may participate in one or more cooperative groups, but don’t consider them to have any authority over the congregation.

A lot of people even in traditional denominations feel that way. That’s why most Protestants don’t care how many denominations there are.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don’t know that I’d count individual churches, but for many Protestants the basic unit of the church is the congregation. Denominations exist to handle some cooperative tasks. There are a large group of nondenominational congregations. They may participate in one or more cooperative groups, but don’t consider them to have any authority over the congregation.

So are you saying, maybe at least for Baptists, there are dozens of kinds (denominations) of Baptist congregations and not 52,000 Baptist denominations in the USA alone? That would make some sense. But how does one comprehend a non-denominational denomination? Or denominations for that matter?

 

[hedrick]

On the OP, on principle I think the Protestant view is that congregations call their own leaders. Many denominations provide central training and some oversight over ordination. But in principle I think any congregation has the right to ordain their church officers. I wouldn’t normally consider someone ordained unless a church has called them, though that may include calls for special ministries such as chaplain, which would ‘t actually be leaders of the church or denominational body that ordained them.

 

[hedrick]

So are you saying, maybe at least for Baptists, there are dozens of kinds (denominations) of Baptist congregations and not 52,000 Baptist denominations in the USA alone? That would make some sense. But how does one comprehend a non-denominational denomination? Or denominations for that matter?

Probably dozens. But some may be classifications for churches that don’t really have any organizational connections with each other.

Normally when people look for a church they visit nearby churches, and don’t care exactly what denomination they are. So most people make no attempt to understand all denominations. Church leadership generally has a bit more understanding, but typically the church is started by another church or a minister. They probably only seriously understand the denominations that are in their area and close to them in style. Nobody tries to understand all Protestant denominations., though a lot of people understand at least something about the major Protestant traditions.

 

[Albion]

Only if we assume "households" included no children.

Right. I've made that very point many times.

What I meant by that sentence was that only adults are specifically talked about in those cases, which is the opening used by Christians who don't believe in infant baptism to make the claim that the Bible "doesn't say" children were baptized.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Nor does the Bible say “Thou shall not baptize penguins.”
That is called “an argument from silence”.

What the BIBLE does say is:

• Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

(a baby does not “repent and” when you baptize it.)

The BIBLE also says:

• "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” [Mark 16:16]
  
  
• “But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.” [Acts 8:12-13]
  
  
• “Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.” [Acts 18:8]

From this comes our name - Credobaptist - from “Credo” for “I believe” acknowledging the Biblical connection that it was those who profess BELIEF that are called to Baptism. We leave the “arguments from silence” to those that value human traditions more than the actual words of God (Sola Scriptura). That is why we are not Protestant Reformers attempting to correct the RCC but Christians attempting to follow the word of God as our conscience and the Holy Spirit compels us.

But did the bible forbid baptise baby? No right. Why is it a big deal to baptise them? Ask yourself also is there something else which are missing that let you deviated from the practice of the early church to make you a baptist.

Baptist is ignorant about many things, they're modern and tend to do whatever they want and claim sola scriptura.

 

[Albion]

Still hoping for some Baptists. OK?

Apologies. I took it that by asking the question you were looking for the answer, not that you wanted to put Baptists "on the spot."

 

[chevyontheriver]

Apologies. I took it that by asking the question you were looking for the answer, not that you wanted to put Baptists "on the spot."

That was rude! I wanted Baptist opinions and not your opinion of the opinions Baptists are supposed to have. But thanks for the backhanded apologies.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Probably dozens. But some may be classifications for churches that don’t really have any organizational connections with each other.

Normally when people look for a church they visit nearby churches, and don’t care exactly what denomination they are. So most people make no attempt to understand all denominations. Church leadership generally has a bit more understanding, but typically the church is started by another church or a minister. They probably only seriously understand the denominations that are in their area and close to them in style. Nobody tries to understand all Protestant denominations., though a lot of people understand at least something about the major Protestant traditions.

I guess not every group fits neatly into a denominational theory. Non-denominational groups being a prime example. If every Baptist congregation considered themselves a denomination WOULD have been another. A third is how some people want there to be multiple Catholic denominations, as if the 23 Eastern Catholic Rites, different as they are, were different denominations. And then the semi-independence of groups crossing international lines. Sounds like the problem is with denominational theory trying to explain the diversity out there. The diversity itself is diverse.

So the 20,000 or 30,000 or 50,000+ denominations thingie is totally weak in trying to explain the scope of diversity. Nobody can agree what a denomination is. One guy says each Baptist congregation is a denomination. Another says there are only dozens of kinds of Baptists. Non-denominational denominationalism is undefinable in the same way. All we can say is that there is a crazy diversity. Some like it. Others see it as a prime sign of failure. We can't all agree on even that.

 

[Peter J Barban]

That was rude! I wanted Baptist opinions and not your opinion of the opinions Baptists are supposed to have. But thanks for the backhanded apologies.

Here is a Baptist answer, which is totally unhelpful. I attended several Baptist churches in America and Taiwan. In one I was the Sunday School director for 3 years. In all that time, I never gave thought to how our church connected to all the other Baptist churches. I just assumed we were like the Presbyterians. I'm pretty sure most Baptists know about as much as I did until there is a need to know.

 

[Paidiske]

I guess for churches which have things like bishops, you kind of notice they exist. Whereas if there's an absence of any personal representative of the living connection between congregations, it's easy to not notice as much?

I must admit the idea of not ever thinking about it kind of blows my mind, though.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Here is a Baptist answer, which is totally unhelpful. I attended several Baptist churches in America and Taiwan. In one I was the Sunday School director for 3 years. In all that time, I never gave thought to how our church connected to all the other Baptist churches. I just assumed we were like the Presbyterians. I'm pretty sure most Baptists know about as much as I did until there is a need to know.

How does that work? Are you doing church hoping?

 

[Peter J Barban]

I wouldn't say I have been church hopping. in my mind, it's all one church. As long as I can teach and preach the word of God, I'm OK with all of them.

1. Grew up in a Catholic church.

2. Born again in 1981, joined a nondenominational Bible Church -called into missions. I made preparation for missions my priority for the next 10 years. In college, I joined the Navigators and Chinese Christian Fellowship.

3. Post-college, 1984, I joined a Baptist church and trained with a mass evangelism missionary group.

4. 3 month Mission trip to the Philippines. Lived with a Japanese Pastor for a month, a Christian commune for a month, and did mass evangelism with a Filipino team for a month. Saw Revival in small Philippine mining town, turned down chance to be the town's only Priest/Paster.

5. Next, served as a deacon in the Christian and Missionary Alliance (CMA) to help start an extension church.

6. 1987? joined CMA Seminary missionary program- Became youth pastor for Taiwanese Reformed Church for 3 years. Also worked for a World Relief - a Christian Refugee Agency.

7. Graduated 1991 with M.Div. Moved to Taiwan. 1992 until today served the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan as a self-supported missionary. Also served in a Baptist Church and an Evangelical mission group.

For the past 30 years, I have followed Paul's missionary model of working full time in a secular job, teaching the Bible in my Base church, and helping with other Christian ministries in Taiwan.

8. Taught Bible Study in 1993 at Charismatic church. Filled with the Spirit and met my wife.

9. 1999? Joined Baptist Church as Sunday School Director for 3 years + 2years regular attender. (I was a voting member of two churches at the same time)

10. 2010? Attended my local Charismatic Church to see about starting up a new English congregation. Both Church and I were not ready.

11. 2015? -2019 Occasional preaching at an independent Church.

And lots of smaller stuff. I have a nice balance of Catholic, Evangelical, Mainstream, Charismatic, and parachurch experience.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

I wouldn't say I have been church hopping. in my mind, it's all one church. As long as I can teach and preach the word of God, I'm OK with all of them.

1. Grew up in a Catholic church.

2. Born again in 1981, joined a nondenominational Bible Church -called into missions. I made preparation for missions my priority for the next 10 years. In college, I joined the Navigators and Chinese Christian Fellowship.

3. Post-college, 1984, I joined a Baptist church and trained with a mass evangelism missionary group.

4. 3 month Mission trip to the Philippines. Lived with a Japanese Pastor for a month, a Christian commune for a month, and did mass evangelism with a Filipino team for a month. Saw Revival in small Philippine mining town, turned down chance to be the town's only Priest/Paster.

5. Next, served as a deacon in the Christian and Missionary Alliance (CMA) to help start an extension church.

6. 1987? joined CMA Seminary missionary program- Became youth pastor for Taiwanese Reformed Church for 3 years. Also worked for a World Relief - a Christian Refugee Agency.

7. Graduated 1991 with M.Div. Moved to Taiwan. 1992 until today served the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan as a self-supported missionary. Also served in a Baptist Church and an Evangelical mission group.

For the past 30 years, I have followed Paul's missionary model of working full time in a secular job, teaching the Bible in my Base church, and helping with other Christian ministries in Taiwan.

8. Taught Bible Study in 1993 at Charismatic church. Filled with the Spirit and met my wife.

9. 1999? Joined Baptist Church as Sunday School Director for 3 years + 2years regular attender. (I was a voting member of two churches at the same time)

10. 2010? Attended my local Charismatic Church to see about starting up a new English congregation. Both Church and I were not ready.

11. 2015? -2019 Occasional preaching at an independent Church.

And lots of smaller stuff. I have a nice balance of Catholic, Evangelical, Mainstream, Charismatic, and parachurch experience.

Wow how you navigate btw their differences? Have you ever have issue signing certain type or creed or confession pior joining a church? Also isn't a church or a local community would always want you to stay long? What's your excuses to move on?

 

[hedrick]

Wow how you navigate btw their differences? Have you ever have issue signing certain type or creed or confession pior joining a church? Also isn't a church or a local community would always want you to stay long? What's your excuses to move on?

Very few churches require subscription to a creed. Some conservative Presbyterian, maybe Lutheran. The Baptist tradition held “soul freedom”, which gave individuals a lot of leeway. That’s not so true after the conservative takeover of the SBC, but they still don’t have an actual creed. Typically you can get in trouble for denying that Jesus is God or accepting homosexuality, but mostly churches don’t have much requirement fir doctrine. It may be different for pastors and church officers.

 

[atpollard]

Is that true that every Baptist congregation is considered a separate denomination? Can any other Baptists corroborate this? There are supposedly 52,000 Baptist congregations in the USA alone. So count all of those as separate denominations and we start with 52,000 before even beginning to count the Lutherans and Congregationalists and all that? Is that so?

Since no one will answer you and it is pointless for me to testify for myself, I offer the following information from the Southern Baptist Convention to help you decide if the SBC is ONE DENOMINATION or if it is an umbrella organization over 50,000 independent DENOMINATIONS.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a fellowship of over 47,000 Baptist churches scattered across the United States and its territories. These congregations, comprised of numerous racial, ethnic, language, and socioeconomic people groups, are called “cooperating churches.” They have organized themselves to accomplish a specific set of missions and ministry initiatives, all for the purpose of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all people everywhere. Fast Facts - SBC.net

Join the SBC
We come from different places, but we share the same mission. We can do more together.
Almost 50,000 congregations strong, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) represents many backgrounds, races, ethnicities, and socioeconomic groups. We each have our own story, but we are all united by the Gospel. Join the SBC - SBC.net

THE PROCESS
There are two ways for churches to affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). They are:
1
Churches may affiliate with the SBC at a State Conventon level. First, to begin the process of affiliating your church through a state or regional convention which serves your area, find your state convention here. The state convention staff team will be happy to assist you in this process.
2
Churches may affiliate with the SBC at a national convention level. To complete the SBC affiliation process, at the national level, please complete the steps found here:
The Process - SBC.net

BELIEFS
The Baptist Faith and Message

“Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God."
Committee Report on the submission of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000
The Baptist Faith and Message



​

 

[chevyontheriver]

Since no one will answer you and it is pointless for me to testify for myself, I offer the following information from the Southern Baptist Convention to help you decide if the SBC is ONE DENOMINATION or if it is an umbrella organization over 50,000 independent DENOMINATIONS.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a fellowship of over 47,000 Baptist churches scattered across the United States and its territories. These congregations, comprised of numerous racial, ethnic, language, and socioeconomic people groups, are called “cooperating churches.” They have organized themselves to accomplish a specific set of missions and ministry initiatives, all for the purpose of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all people everywhere. Fast Facts - SBC.net

Join the SBC
We come from different places, but we share the same mission. We can do more together.
Almost 50,000 congregations strong, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) represents many backgrounds, races, ethnicities, and socioeconomic groups. We each have our own story, but we are all united by the Gospel. Join the SBC - SBC.net

THE PROCESS
There are two ways for churches to affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). They are:
1
Churches may affiliate with the SBC at a State Conventon level. First, to begin the process of affiliating your church through a state or regional convention which serves your area, find your state convention here. The state convention staff team will be happy to assist you in this process.
2
Churches may affiliate with the SBC at a national convention level. To complete the SBC affiliation process, at the national level, please complete the steps found here:
The Process - SBC.net

BELIEFS
The Baptist Faith and Message

“Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God."
Committee Report on the submission of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000
The Baptist Faith and Message​

Most informative. Thank you. While a bit loose, it would seem that congregations 'affiliate' into a Southern Baptist denomination. Approximately 47,000 congregations are one denomination. That's not what the other guy said but what you found makes some sense.

 

[atpollard]

Most informative. Thank you. While a bit loose, it would seem that congregations 'affiliate' into a Southern Baptist denomination. Approximately 47,000 congregations are one denomination. That's not what the other guy said but what you found makes some sense.

What is a DENOMINATION?
If 50,000 churches have 50,000 individual charters filed with local governments and NO GOVERNING BODY has any authority over any one of those Independent Churches, is that one "denomination"? Each local body of believers is privately "incorporated" and owns its building (or rents). Any local church can give what they wish (including nothing) and withdraw from the SBC at any time.

The only power the SBC has is to expel a local church from the SBC and refuse to accept their money to help fund the SBC missionaries and Seminaries.

Is that ONE denomination, or 50,000 denominations pooling funds into a para-church ministry?
I leave it for you to make that judgement.
I created a topic on Baptist Distinctives to explain what makes a Baptist Church a Baptist Church.
Time for me to leave this topic to its original purpose.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Time for me to leave this topic to its original purpose.

We have gotten far afield. And it's as muddled a concept as it ever was. All I can say is there are a bunch of them, whatever they are.