so anyone can be self-ordained?

Jesusthekingofking

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in the protestant circle, anyone can set up their own church and claim to be a servant of God. As long as they have followers they are the person in charge, free to set up any kind of system. How does that differ from the roman catholic system? at least in RC or eastern Christianity there must be a hierarchy, one must be ordained to be able to minister. otherwise, any wolf or man with ambition can create a business to set up their own church.
 

Paidiske

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In most Protestant churches, there is a process and there are checks and balances. What you describe sounds to me like a non-denominational extreme, rather than a Protestant norm.
 
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Norbert L

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..there must be a hierarchy, one must be ordained to be able to minister. otherwise, any wolf or man with ambition can create a business to set up their own church.
The RCC or any other Christian organization has wolves too. The ordination process does not immunize any Christian brand from wolves. It's a my dad is bigger than your dad line of reasoning or in this case, the mainstream church is better than the corner strip mall church.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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In most Protestant churches, there is a process and there are checks and balances. What you describe sounds to me like a non-denominational extreme, rather than a Protestant norm.
But there are really thousands of denomination in protestantism
 
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pdudgeon

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But there are really thousands of denomination in protestantism
Yes, there are, and each one began with the idea of improving something that Christ Himself created.
Is that possible? NOPE.
But that doesn't stop men from trying to achieve what they thought others messed up.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Yes, there are, and each one began with the idea of improving something that Christ Himself created.
Is that possible? NOPE.
But that doesn't stop men from trying to achieve what they thought others messed up.
That's true. Everyone who started a movement created a bigger mess later. It's just a non stop cycle.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I looked into ordination a few years ago. I don't think you can "self-ordain" but you can buy an ordination, just like you can buy a diploma. However, a decent church is not going to recognize your easy ordination. But it may be good enough to be legally recognized as ordained.
 
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Paidiske

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But there are really thousands of denomination in protestantism

Perhaps. My point was simply that the idea that any Protestant could just self-ordain, was quite inaccurate.
 
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Petros2015

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But there are really thousands of denomination in protestantism

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atpollard

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But there are really thousands of denomination in protestantism
The figure is somewhat misleading. All Baptist Churches follow certain “baptist distinctives” (common beliefs that make them “Baptists”) yet every local Baptist church (congregation) is counted as a distinct “denomination” because one of the Baptist distinctions is that EVERY local body answers directly to Christ as the Head of His Church.

How many “Catholic” denominations would you count if every Catholic church (congregation) was counted as a separate “denomination”?

My only point is to take the statistics on “thousands” of Protestant Denominations with a grain of salt. It is sort of true and it is sort of false.

(As an aside, many Baptists will argue that they are not ‘Protestant’ because the Baptist movement did not come from any ‘protest’ or attempt to reform the RCC (like Lutheranism or the Anglican church did). We grew from men of conscience with a heterodox reading of scripture that baptism was something that God commanded of BELIEVERS and ONLY of believers. It was a worship born of conscience and the Word of God … having NOTHING to do with the RCC (a belief for which early Baptists were as often martyred by Protestants as Catholics.)
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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The figure is somewhat misleading. All Baptist Churches follow certain “baptist distinctives” (common beliefs that make them “Baptists”) yet every local Baptist church (congregation) is counted as a distinct “denomination” because one of the Baptist distinctions is that EVERY local body answers directly to Christ as the Head of His Church.

How many “Catholic” denominations would you count if every Catholic church (congregation) was counted as a separate “denomination”?

My only point is to take the statistics on “thousands” of Protestant Denominations with a grain of salt. It is sort of true and it is sort of false.

(As an aside, many Baptists will argue that they are not ‘Protestant’ because the Baptist movement did not come from any ‘protest’ or attempt to reform the RCC (like Lutheranism or the Anglican church did). We grew from men of conscience with a heterodox reading of scripture that baptism was something that God commanded of BELIEVERS and ONLY of believers. It was a worship born of conscience and the Word of God … having NOTHING to do with the RCC (a belief for which early Baptists were as often martyred by Protestants as Catholics.)
But the bible didn't say we shouldn't baptize babies no?
 
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atpollard

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But the bible didn't say we shouldn't baptize babies no?
Nor does the Bible say “Thou shall not baptize penguins.”
That is called “an argument from silence”.

What the BIBLE does say is:

  • Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

(a baby does not “repent and” when you baptize it.)

The BIBLE also says:

  • "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” [Mark 16:16]

  • “But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.” [Acts 8:12-13]

  • “Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.” [Acts 18:8]
From this comes our name - Credobaptist - from “Credo” for “I believe” acknowledging the Biblical connection that it was those who profess BELIEF that are called to Baptism. We leave the “arguments from silence” to those that value human traditions more than the actual words of God (Sola Scriptura). That is why we are not Protestant Reformers attempting to correct the RCC but Christians attempting to follow the word of God as our conscience and the Holy Spirit compels us.
 
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Albion

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in the protestant circle, anyone can set up their own church and claim to be a servant of God. As long as they have followers they are the person in charge, free to set up any kind of system. How does that differ from the roman catholic system? at least in RC or eastern Christianity there must be a hierarchy, one must be ordained to be able to minister. otherwise, any wolf or man with ambition can create a business to set up their own church.
I agreed with what you wrote, but with one exception. You said "in the protestant circle," and of course you were speaking of only a small segment of Protestant churches.

All the well-known denominations have a process of ordaining new clergy following examination, training, installation, etc. etc. and it's not at all a "do it yourself" thing.
 
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Albion

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But the bible didn't say we shouldn't baptize babies no?
That's right. All the examples of converts being then baptized which we find in the New Testament are of adults, but the idea that there is a necessary connection or pattern there is missing.

The people and churches which adhere to adults-only baptism never admit it but, obviously, the people spreading the faith in NT times were adults and they made their case about Jesus to other adults. It remains that way today!

That fact neither says that children are forbidden or that there is any particular age requirement.
 
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chevyontheriver

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All Baptist Churches follow certain “baptist distinctives” (common beliefs that make them “Baptists”) yet every local Baptist church (congregation) is counted as a distinct “denomination” because one of the Baptist distinctions is that EVERY local body answers directly to Christ as the Head of His Church.
Is that true that every Baptist congregation is considered a separate denomination? Can any other Baptists corroborate this? There are supposedly 52,000 Baptist congregations in the USA alone. So count all of those as separate denominations and we start with 52,000 before even beginning to count the Lutherans and Congregationalists and all that? Is that so?
[/QUOTE]
 
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Albion

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Is that true that every Baptist congregation is considered a separate denomination? Can any other Baptists corroborate this? There are supposedly 52,000 Baptist congregations in the USA alone. So count all of those as separate denominations and we start with 52,000 before even beginning to count the Lutherans and Congregationalists and all that? Is that so?
Not really. In some denominations each congregation is autonomous, but they belong to a national or international organization in which there are rules, a general convention, and so on. The Southern Baptist Convention is one such, as are other Baptist conventions. Each of these is what's normally considered to be a denomination unless it's all Baptists taken together, but not each congregation.
 
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Albion

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I was hoping for a reply from an actual Baptist. Or even multiple Baptists.
I'm sure you'll get some, but since the answer was at hand, I thought I'd pass it along while you are waiting.

Bear in mind that "denomination" is used in different ways by different people regardless of which one they belong to, and the claim of 33,000 or 40,000 that we often see cited uses a very strange way of counting that really inflates the figure.
 
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Paidiske

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All the examples of converts being then baptized which we find in the New Testament are of adults...

Only if we assume "households" included no children. But to assume that the households of Lydia, the gaoler of Acts 16, Crispus, Stephanas, and so on, all were baptised but included no children would be, at the very least, culturally peculiar for the time.
 
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