So 4 guys stand at the pearly gates...

[JustMeSee]

The two Christians go to heaven. The atheist just dies (no hell).

 

[HighwayMan]

No hell, since I don't believe it. They all continue their journey into growth and understanding, each on their own path but all eventually leading to God. No matter what you believe on Earth, we're all still a long way from being ready for heaven.

 

[revanneosl]

Matthew 25: 31-46 All three go to heaven.

NEXT!

 

[Washington]

Matthew 25: 31-46 All three go to heaven.

NEXT!

Appears you have a conflict: Matthew 25: 31-46 V. John 3:3 -----------And the tap dancing had better be good.

 

[cantata]

If I may ask, who was this directed towards? If me, I chose Christianity as the focus of this because here in the USA they are the largest religious group, and therefore I'd be the most likely to get a large selection of answers from Christians. I ignored listing 'an atheist, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu, jains, wiccan, shaman, etc etc etc ad infinitum' because then the context of the question gets lost in the mass of human flesh.

Not you, given that you're not suggesting that everyone who does a good deed is "serving Christ", even if they don't know it.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Appears you have a conflict: Matthew 25: 31-46 V. John 3:3 -----------And the tap dancing had better be good.

Do the Apsotles write about "going to heaven?"

If so, how?

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Sorry about that. I was originally going to have 4, 2 Christians and 2 Atheists, one of each that has made it to or beyond the level of social contract and one of each that is still at appeal to authority or fear based morality. Unfortunately I couldn't think of a good universal fear motivator for an Atheist that would have the same weight as God for a Christian.

Well why not add in
4. A muslim. who did what he did for his god.
5. A Jew
6. Maybe an atheists who does good for selfish reasons. ect...

 

[ragarth]

Well why not add in
4. A muslim. who did what he did for his god.
5. A Jew
6. Maybe an atheists who does good for selfish reasons. ect...

I answered this in a previous post. #4 and #5 are extraneous to the purpose of this question and would only serve to muddy what I'm after. I chose Christianity as the target religion because they are the largest and arguably most contentious religion in the USA right now, and therefore would provide me with a larger sample size of useable answers. #6 is a good idea in theory, but I believe doing good for selfish reasons is only applicable some of the time. There are periods in one's life where not doing good is better for the self than doing good. Considering the sheer number of choices we must make during a human lifetime, it's safe to say that that inherent selfishness would show it self several times throughout the person's history.

 

[ragarth]

Do the Apsotles write about "going to heaven?"

If so, how?

Polycarp_fan,

I noticed that you didn't answer my previous question about your answer to my original post. I would like to know the basis for your decision on the two Christians going to heaven, and the way that your

"my grace is sufficient"

argument fits into that.

 

[ragarth]

The two Christians go to heaven. The atheist just dies (no hell).

What's your reasoning behind this? The best I can construe from the statement is that we shape our afterlifes. Because the Atheist does not believe in life after death he experiences no life after death, but because the Christians do, then they go to heaven.

This line of reasoning would then lead one to the idea that we go wherever we believe we'll go once we die, ie, a serial murderer who thinks he's doing the will of god will go to heaven regardless of how horrible his crimes in life were.

 

[Washington]

Do the Apsotles write about "going to heaven?"

Yes.

If so, how?

Matthew 25: 31-46 (New International Version)

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth,whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

​

I take "kingdom" to mean heaven.

I take "For I was hungry . . . . " to mean the reason.

I take "whatever you did" to mean the appropriate work.


Ergo: Works will get you into heaven.

 

[ragarth]

Yes.


Matthew 25: 31-46 (New International Version)

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth,whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

​

I take "kingdom" to mean heaven.

I take "For I was hungry . . . . " to mean the reason.

I take "whatever you did" to mean the appropriate work.


Ergo: Works will get you into heaven.

Very excellent post, Washington. I'm impressed.

 

[FireDragons]

What's your reasoning behind this? The best I can construe from the statement is that we shape our afterlifes. Because the Atheist does not believe in life after death he experiences no life after death, but because the Christians do, then they go to heaven.

This line of reasoning would then lead one to the idea that we go wherever we believe we'll go once we die, ie, a serial murderer who thinks he's doing the will of god will go to heaven regardless of how horrible his crimes in life were.

It's not necessarily a "you go where you think you're going" type of thing. There are some Christians that don't believe in an eternal hellfire but rather that the righteous go to heaven and that those who are not simply cease to exist. This interpretation would fit the statement made about the Christians going to heaven and the atheist going nowhere.

Now, to give you my answer. From my understanding of the bible, the 2 Christians would go to heaven, and the atheist would go to hell (whatever you take that to mean). However, my opinion of what SHOULD happen is that all 3 would be admitted to heaven. The 2 that did good because they felt it was the right thing to do are good people, the one who did good out of fear still did good, although I must greatly pity them because living your entire life in perpetual fear is a pretty unenviable way of life.

 

[ragarth]

It's not necessarily a "you go where you think you're going" type of thing. There are some Christians that don't believe in an eternal hellfire but rather that the righteous go to heaven and that those who are not simply cease to exist. This interpretation would fit the statement made about the Christians going to heaven and the atheist going nowhere.

Awesome, thank you for that. And thank you for your input.

 

[Beanieboy]

Ugh, Christocentric universalism.

I'm sure all the virtuous Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jains, &c. would be delighted to know that they're "anonymous Christians"... Sorry, but I just find that idea soooo patronising!

Hmm. Poor choice of idea, poor choice of words, or both?
I don't know if I think all people are "anonymous Christians", but since that is how I was raised, it is my point of reference.

After having talked to atheists, and Hindus, and Buddhists, and Christians, there is a common theme, one of an internal compass. Often, I think atheists are the most accurate to what may truly be, that there is no "God" the way we think of it. I'm rather confused at the number of Christians that tell me that they have never felt God, heard God, know God, or think God may not be listening or paying attention, when they themselves talk about how they have invited Jesus into their heart. Do they think that Jesus is out shopping for the holidays?

It's in no way meant to be patronizing, but rather expand our concept and thinking of what "God" means.

 

[seashale76]

Given this, what do you see as the fate of these three men? Heaven or Hell, and why? Please be detailed in your reasoning for your choice.

I'd say you need to know what heaven and hell are in the first place. There is a reason why Christians aren't supposed to go around claiming to be saved.

God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.
Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[ragarth]

Thank you all for your responses. It's given me a decent amount of material to answer a few questions for me. I may end up making followup posts based on that information, but first I'll need to go through it.

If a moderator would be so kind, I have no clue if I can ask this but can this thread be closed to stop any additional posts? I gathered what I needed, now I need to consider.

 

[Beanieboy]

Ergo: Works will get you into heaven.

I would agree, only I would add this.

If I know you, and want to be my friend, I can't simply offer you a ride to work, or do you a favor, then demand that you be my friend (works), because I deserve it. Such things cannot be demanded as payment.

If I say that you are my friend, but make no time for you, then I am simply your friend in lip service (faith without works is dead)

However, if I am truly your friend, I do things out of my love for you. I don't expect payment, or to be paid back. I simply help you as an extension of my love, don't keep track of it, and do so endlessly, as you do for me.
(faith + works)

The sheep did not say, "I fed some dude. Let me in!!!" They said, "When did I feed you???" They didn't even know that they were loving God in loving their neighbor. They were just following their heart, expecting no spiritual paycheck of any kind.

Their heart was in the right place.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

No, I was addressing Gremlins, and had a momentary lapse of PPP (proper posting protocol). Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Ok.
I wasn't sure who you addressed the question too.
I would have answered you earlier, but my pc died and I've only just got it fixed.

 

[HumbleServant94]

This question is designed to isolate specific aspects of Christian morality, specifically the origin and context within which morality is 'right'.

3 guys stand before the pearly gates. 2 are Christian and the last atheist. All three men lived moral lives as described in the bible. They helped old ladies across the street, gave to charity, was kind to their fellow man, etc. They all acted to the betterment of those around them and were outstanding citizens, beacons of morality.

Of the Christians, one was moral because he truly cared about those around him, his motivation was a genuine concern for those around him. The 2nd Christian, however, was motivated by fear, fear of God's retribution, of Hell, of an eternity suffering. The Atheist lived a moral life because he truly cared about those around him, his motivation was a genuine concern for those around him.

Given this, what do you see as the fate of these three men? Heaven or Hell, and why? Please be detailed in your reasoning for your choice.

The first Christian is let into Heaven and receives many crowns and rewards for his charity and hard work.

The second Christian is let into Heaven, but he doesn't receive rewards because his motivation was from fear.

The Atheist is sent to Hell.