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Smoke of them and Her ascending forever - Revelation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. 1st century Jerusalem

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  2. Future Jerusalem

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  3. LIteral city of Babylon

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  4. Rome

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  5. Moscow

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  6. I don't know

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  7. other

    57.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    How do other view these verses? They both show both a people and City and the smoke of them ascending forever and ever.
    How do both Amills, Postmills, Premills and others interpret these.
    Is it going to be a city that is literally going to be seen by the world burning and smoking forever? Thks for any thoughts and views on this......

    Who is symbolizing the "them" here?

    Reve 14:11
    And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into <Ages of Ages>.
    And not they are having rest of Day and of Night, the Ones worshiping the Beast and its image,
    or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."....................
    eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

    Who would be the "they" in this verse shouting for joy?

    Reve 19:3
    and a second time they have declared "Hallelujah"!
    and the smoke of Her is ascending into <the Ages of the Ages>"
    eiV touV aiwnaV twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>
     
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  2. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    Maybe those associated or not with Christ's saving grace?
    It’s interesting that the only other occurrence of smoke in the NT is
    Acts of the apostles 2:19-21
    19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
    20
    the sun shall be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood,
    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
    21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
     
  3. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    I think destroyed "Babylon" will be the lake of fire, and the ones rejoicing are us.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Excellent find Cassia! :amen: I never noticed the word smoke was used only 1 time outside of Revelation. Thank you.

    I decided to look up the greek word for smoke:

    2586. kapnos kap-nos' of uncertain affinity; smoke:--smoke.
    Strong's Number G2586 matches the Greek καπνός (kapnos), which occurs 13 times in 11 verses

    According to a greek/hebrew interlinear, the exact form of the greek word for #G2586 used in Acts 2:19 occurs in 5 verses:

    Revelation 9:2, 3, 18 and Revelation 15:8

    #G2586 is used 5 times in this one chapter alone:

    Revelation 9:
    2 and he opens the well/pit of the abyss, and ascended smoke<2586> out of the well/pit, as smoke<2586> of a great furnace,
    3 And out of the smoke<2586> came forth locusts to the land, and there was given to them authority, as scorpions of the earth have authority,
    and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke<2586> of the well/pit.
    18 by these three were the third of men killed, from the fire, and from the smoke<2586>, and from the brimstone, that is proceeding out of their mouth,

    Now this is just awesome! This mirrors the OT Tabernacle of Moses in the wilderness, Exodus 40
    [unfortunately, most versions use #2411 "temple" in Revelation. #2411 is never once used in Revelation]

    Revelation 15:
    8 and filled/repleted was the Sanctuary/Tabernacle<3485> with smoke<2586> from the glory of God, and from His power,
    And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary/Tabernacle
    till should be being finished the seven plagues/blows of the seven Messengers,
    [Exodus 40, Isaiah 4:5]

    Just as Moses was unable to enter:

    Exodus 40:
    34 And the cloud covereth the tent of meeting, and the glory of Yahweh hath filled the Tabernacle;
    35 and Moses hath not been able to go in unto the tent of meeting,
    for the cloud hath tabernacled on it, and the honour of Yahweh hath filled the Tabernacle.

    Isaiah 4:5
    then Yahweh will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night.
    For over all the glory there will be a covering.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  5. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    Almost like an act of the Holy Spirit about to transpire before the commencement of saints entering the heavenly temple. Interesting find!
     
  6. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Not us but these who worshipped the beast .
     
  7. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    How do you get that from Revelation 19?
     
  8. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Revelation is not the only end time book .
     
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Kind of reminds me of the 10 virgins in Matt 25:

    Matthew 25
    9 Answered yet the prudent ones "no lest not no should be sufficing to us and to ye. Be ye going! rather to the ones selling and buy ye! for selves".
    10 Of coming away yet of them to purchase, came the Bridegroom and the prepared ones entered with Him into the marriage-festivities, and is locked the door.
    11 Subsequently yet are coming also the rest of the virgins saying "Lord! Lord! open Thou! to us"
    12 Answering He said "Verily I am saying to ye not I have known ye"

    Revelation 15:
    8 and filled/repleted was the Sanctuary/Tabernacle<3485> with smoke<2586> from the glory of God, and from His power,
    And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary/Tabernacle
    till should be being finished the seven plagues/blows of the seven Messengers,

    Most versions render #G3485 as "Temple #G2411" in Revelation, tho #G2411 is never once mentioned in Revelation.
    Jesus uses #2411 at the start of the Olivet Discourse:
    John is told to measure the Sanctuary those inside of it. Any idea who those could be?

    3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.

    Revelation 11:1
    And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the altar and those worshiping in it
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    If one holds to a Preterist position in regards to the book of Revelation, that would likely make these worshiping therein meaning the Jews in the first century, and the temple meaning the 2nd one before it was destroyed in 70 AD. I totally reject that as a possible interpretation. And if that can't work, obviously a literal brick and mortar temple is not what is meant here. And the same would have to apply to the city of Jerusalem mentioned in those verses. The literal city in the ME not being what is meant either. What does that leave as an option? Believers are being meant as the ones worshiping therein, IOW saints of the church. This is only an educated guess, so I don't know for certain as to whether I am right or not. But I am certain an interpretation that would involve the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, is not what is meant here, regardless when the book of Revelation was written, even if it were written before 70 AD.
     
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  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Good catch.
    I looked up a few instances of "smoke" in the OT and found Isaiah 34:8...what a brutal chapter.........

    Isaiah 34:8
    8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
    The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
    9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
    And its dust into brimstone;
    Its land shall become burning pitch.

    10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
    Its smoke shall ascend forever.

    From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
    No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The road of Bible prophecy has a ditch on opposite sides of the road.
    One is Full-Futurism, and the other is Full-Preterism.

    In my humble opinion, this thread is headed toward one of those ditches...

    .
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Double post
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    :oldthumbsup:
    The us being those of the NC faith of Jesus the Christ.

    Note the similarity between Ezra 3 and Revelation 18, 19

    Ezra 3:
    12 And many of the priests, and the Levites, and the Chiefs of the fathers, the elders, who had seen the first House--in this house being founded before their eyes--are weeping with a loud voice, and many with a Shout, in Joy, lifting up the voice;
    13 and the people are not discerning the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people are shouting--a great shout--and the noise hath been heard unto a distance. [Revelation 18:10]

    Luke 19:41
    And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/<2799> over Her,.......

    Revelation 18:9
    and shall be lamenting<2799> and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing of Her

    Revelation 19:3
    and a second time they have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"


    LAKE OF FIRE symbolizing 1st century JERUSALEM burning in Revelation?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    SO what is your view of the Great City where the smoke going up forever and ever.
    Is that literal smoke ascending?
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you are trying to prove that Jesus is not coming back to planet earth in the future, you are wasting our time here.

    Act 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
    Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
    Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


    .
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I take it that you don't know then.
    That's all you have to say.

    Stick with the topic.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I would say the great city is found in Revelation 11:8, and also found below.

    70 AD was not the first time it was destroyed, and it will not be the last...




    .
     
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  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    This is those that receive the mark of the beast. It says their SMOKE ascendeth forever, not that they will burn forever.

    Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    That is Babylon, the great whore whose smoke is ascending forever--the people shouting for joy are the saved in heaven.
     
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  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Yes, it is the smoke of the tormenting of them.
    So are you saying that it is the literal city of Babylon? Why can't it be Jerusalem?
    Why does Reve 11:8 say it is spirictually Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was crucified? Thanks

    Rev 11:8
    And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Rev 17:5
    And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
     
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