Smith Wigglesworth ....

[Doug45]

Yitzchak,

Greetings from Eastern Pennsylvania.

Liked your post. Just a few thoughts. The issue is the pursuit and the goal is Jesus.

By the way, I think that the scripture teaches us that mentoring relationships are much better than Christian hero/celebrity relationships. We are to make disciples and the bible speaks of spiritual fathers and mothers.

When we try to pattern our christian walk after a stranger that we have no relationship with , we are in danger of all sorts of extremes and unrealistic notions. What we really need is a more proximate goal. Someone who is mature that we are in relationship with that we learn from.

Agreed, discipleship is always superior to learning for ourselves or studying the life of a stranger. But the scripture is full of biographical themes that we all use in our walk with Jesus. And each of those lives are filled with both successes and failures, good motives and bad motives. What is the difference if we learn in that way from them or people like Wigglesworth?

My older brother used to talk to me about our mindset when we played football together. He used to say, I would always want to go for the " big play ". But that I needed to learn the fundamentals first. The three yard gain up the middle followed by another one. They say football is a game of inches. Much of the battle is won or lost in the "trenches". The unexciting work of blocking and tackling. An inch gained here and another gained there. The highlights always show the big plays but talk to a caoch and they will tell you that the big plays are not possible without all the "unseen" battles of inches that took place during the game.

Surely there is no question that there are many plays for each 'bomb'. Surely we have to learn the basics, and in reality, I would suspect that we would only find in Wigglesworth basic truths that we already know but aren't applying as dilligently as he did. Surely, if we are content and satisfied with gaining inches we will hit our mark. But that is not the intent and limitation that the Father has placed upon us.

It is true that heroes inspire us. How many children sign up for little league because they want to be like Michael Jordan or some sports hero. But Michael Jordan will tell you it was hours and hours of work behind his success.

Michael Jordan is a basketball star.

So my question is what was behind the heroics of Smith Wigglesworth? What were the struggles that he fought through ?

Both are good questions.

Wigglesworth is not the issue to me. He is simply the earthen vessel in which the Holy Spirit resided and touched his world for Jesus in a profound and manifest way. This generation needs some of the same Holy Spirit manifestation. Myself included.

Wigglesworth, and men like him, stand as a testimony that people like you and me can and should be engaging God with a much greater intimacy than we have. I am not enthralled with him; I am amazed and awestruck with the treasure that dwelt within him.

Doug

 

[Yitzchak]

Yitzchak,

Greetings from Eastern Pennsylvania.

Liked your post. Just a few thoughts. The issue is the pursuit and the goal is Jesus.



Agreed, discipleship is always superior to learning for ourselves or studying the life of a stranger. But the scripture is full of biographical themes that we all use in our walk with Jesus. And each of those lives are filled with both successes and failures, good motives and bad motives. What is the difference if we learn in that way from them or people like Wigglesworth?

I agree. Your point is sound. We can learn from Wigglesworth just as much as we can from Moses, Elijah, etc. I might add that we can also learn from revivals such as the Toronto blessing , the Brownsville revival, etc.

Michael Jordan is a basketball star.

I know. this is an example of a mixed metaphor.

 

[Doug45]

I agree. Your point is sound. We can learn from Wigglesworth just as much as we can from Moses, Elijah, etc. I might add that we can also learn from revivals such as the Toronto blessing , the Brownsville revival, etc.

I lived in western NY from 1988 to 2001 and went to Toronto Airport Vinyard on a number of occaisions. Randy Clark is now doing something called 'Global Awakening' and is seeing a lot of the miraculous.

A couple of men from our church were in Brazil with him just a few weeks ago. Awesome reports.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[Yitzchak]

I lived in western NY from 1988 to 2001 and went to Toronto Airport Vinyard on a number of occaisions. Randy Clark is now doing something called 'Global Awakening' and is seeing a lot of the miraculous.

A couple of men from our church were in Brazil with him just a few weeks ago. Awesome reports.

Blessings,

Doug

I am glad to hear that Randy Clark is still moving in the flow of God's Spirit. I had not heard anything about his ministry for a few years now.

It has been about four years now since I was at Toronto airport fellowship. I hear reports from there through the grapevine once in a while. The thing that is so awesome about Toronto is this was an ordinary church. They often said at the Toronto fellowship that their services would be boring were it not for God showing up. There was no special preaching or worship. Just the same as there is in thousands of other average churches around the world. but when God showed up , it was anything but boring.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Who said she wasn’t forgiven? Didn’t Jesus also say something about prejudging others? Furthermore, I will demand an apology from anyone else - you included - who insults me. It is too easy in a public forum like this to dish out public insults. Let's see if the insulters can also dish out a public apology.

~Jim

You have the choice of whether you require justice, or whether you are going to forgive without expecting an apology. Expecting an apology from someone whom you think has insulting you is a demand for justice. An apology will make you feel that you have received justice.

I believe that if you are going to demand justice, in that someone you think has insulted you deserves to have to make an apology to you, then God may very well decide that you will need to get what you actually deserve. This means that Satan can come to God (as your accuser) and demand the right for you to be treated as you deserve to be treated. Then God will have to measure out justice for your sins and failures according to the same standards that you demand of others.

To fully enter into the forgiveness that comes through the death of Christ, God has to do something for you that you did not deserve. You and I do not deserve to be forgiven. We rebelled against God before we gave our hearts to the Lord. We did not deserve to have someone come to us and give us the Gospel. We did not deserve to be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.

What we did deserved is to go to judgement and hell for our rebellion and sin.

Therefore, if you have an attitude that demands that people give you the justice you require when they appear to insult you, then God will have to mete out to you what you truly deserve as well.

But if you unconditionally forgive someone, even though they do not deserve it. and not require an apology from them, the devil can come and accuse but find no grounds to get God to mete out justice to you. God can stand on His position that He is going to continue to forgive you for your faults and keep you filled with the Holy Spirit.

I have only just learned this, and it is being a challenge and a blessing in my life. I have people in my life who have hurt and disillusioned me, and I have been challenged to be forgiving and not demand the justice that I feel I deserve in order to bring closure. I have learned that total forgiveness brings closure as well, and more effectively.

I sense that you have seen things that people do that have seriously disillusioned you concerning areas of the church. I therefore impart to you an attitude of forgiveness and a restoration of trust and openness to other Christians, to countereact the mistrust and disillusionment that has caused you to close your heart against many people whom you think have failed you, the church, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

To accept the impartation, all you have to do is to touch your monitor with your right hand. It is amazing the change you may sense in yourself as a result.

 

[Doug45]

Good post Oscarr.

Just another thought; a bunny trail I suspect.

Illusions are partially true, but are really mindsets that hamper our ability to clearly see God. Therefore, being disillusioned, is really a good thing because it means that some or all of those faulty mindsets are exposed.

Disillusionment is when I fall into the trap of maintaining a strong emotional attachment to those faulty mindsets and actually set myself against the Holy Spirit as He tries to expose them to us and deliver us from them.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[peacechild4]

Thank the Lord for Christian forums..
and for treasure like this to be dug up and brought out of hiding..

Annoying though that right now my computer freezes up pages and I lose my reply whenever I write up something to post as it did with what I had previously wrote here.... I thought I had copied what I wrote but even that wouldn't work... Sigh... but I will persevere..

Smiths Wiggleworth.. what a man of God.. and used by God and enabled by God..

I only recently heard of him.. and I heard enough to go out and buy the book I recently found in our testimony section of our local Christian bookstore.. and have now lent it out to my mother and bought another copy... Probably to put in our church library!!

A very human and down to earth man.. but boy did he have a powerful anointing of God on his life.. what amazed me is people falling on their knees in repentance and feeling the extent of their sins sometimes with something as simple as Smith Wiggleswork walking by them!!
Another great story and testimony is that of Samuel Morris.. we certainly must never ever let these stories get lost..

A good testimony only increases our faith and trust and admiration in God our Father.. in essence we want of Him!! More of God and all He is.... His mighty power at work within us who believe... which is available to all who call on His name..

The tragedy is that so few ever truly believe and receive... which is oh so sad considering the great masses around us who need Him.... who desperately need God..

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[SharonL]

QC challenged the claim of the OP that this fellow never read any other book and proposed it was an urban legend. That was then challenged with a counter-claim.

Personally I don't care if the man read War and Peace in a fortnight.

What did he teach?!

Great reply - reading his work is such an inspiration - the one that stands out to me and comes to my mind a lot - one night he was awakened by something in his room or on his bed (I don't remember that part) - but he got up and turned the light on and it was the devil himself - he just said - "Oh its only you" and went back to bed.

To me that shows total faith in God and where he stood with God. I love reading his works. Great inspiration.

 

[irenemcg]

Faith that Prevails and Healing.

See also here.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=57

 

[walkin2e]

Smith Wigglesworth was a great man of God and had much faith..I kinda look like him!

walkin2e

 

[Christina M]

QC challenged the claim of the OP that this fellow never read any other book and proposed it was an urban legend. That was then challenged with a counter-claim.

Personally I don't care if the man read War and Peace in a fortnight.

What did he teach?!

Tree... you are soooooooooooooo refreshing.....honest and true. That is so important.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In my younger days, I fellowshipped with a number of people who met Smith Wigglesworth and attended his meetings when he came out to New Zealand in 1927. I also had many hours of great fellowship with Walter Cantrell, who was Smith Wigglesworth's pianist for his meetings throughout New Zealand. He had many stories to tell about the healings he saw, and many anecdotes about the man himself. I believe that Wigglesworth's ministry compares with that of Peter and John in the book of Acts. They had a powerful healing ministry that attracted thousands of people from all over the region, and when they were healed, they asked "Where did this power to heal come from?" and this opened the way for Peter and John to preach the gospel to them with amazing results. Smith Wigglesworth was the same. His first meeting in the Wellington town hall was attended by about 50 people. His attitude was that people would come when people got healed. In that first meeting there were some amazing healings (attested to later by doctor's reports). The next night there were so many people, that hundreds had to be turned away because the town hall was absolutely packed to capacity.

The point I am making here is that healing is a tool to get people to stop and listen to the gospel. In these hardened days, the mere words of the gospel are falling on deaf ears, because most people are not interested in religious gobbledigook, which is all people get if the preaching of the gospel is not accompanied by demonstration of His power.

To those who criticise demonstrations of power, remember that this is the way that God did it in the book of Acts. He demonstrated his power in healing and deliverance, and then when He got the attention of people through those things, the gospel was preached and those people got saved - thousands of them at one time.

I answer the critics with "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" If God's way in the book of Acts was to demonstrate His power in healing and deliverance to get people to hear and believe the gospel, is it not right for Him to do the same in these days?

These days, some preacher gets up, preaches a sermon based on mere words, and then expects souls to be saved by some magical process without the demonstration of healing and deliverance. This happens in 90 percent of our churches. No wonder very few people are getting saved, and whole denominations are declining and dying.

Evangelistic sermons and missions are barren without the presence of the power of God to heal people and deliver them from demons and bondage. And I think that the real power of God is more than someone getting up and preaching 'healing' and then telling people that they haven't enough faith if they don't get healed under his ministry. It is not the fault of the people - it is because the guy's ministry is barren and the power of God is not with him.

This was the difference with Smith Wigglesworth. His ministry was fruitful and not barren. God honoured and supported Him by demonstrations of His divine power. We need to find out why he was able to minister this way and have proven success in the healing ministry when the vast majority of big name healing ministries in the United States and elsewhere can offer only empty barren words and no real healings.

We need to ask ourselves and God why He is not supporting and honouring our contemporary healing evangelists; why people are going thousands of miles to get to a meeting and then being cruelling disappointed because the preacher can't back his assertions with demonstrations of the power of God.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus will heal today, because there was never a time that demonstrations of the power of God are needed than today. If we don't have demonstrations of the power of God in our evangelism, we will lose vast areas of our countries to Islam. The Muslim faith is sweeping the world, and modern day evangelists have no answer to them. Without demonstrations of the power of God, our churches will crumble, and be replaced by mosques.

But what will stop the advance of Islam is a demonstration of the power of God supporting the evangelism of the Christian church, where people are healed and delivered by that power, and that people everywhere will know that we follow a Jesus who is alive and active in the world today.

The big problem with preaching the gospel in the world today is the indifference of the people who hear it. Their reaction is "so what?" This is why we need to have the power of God accompanying our evangelism. We need more than mere words. We need to show the world that our God is a living and powerful God; and the way He did it in the book of Acts is the way He ordained it; so we'd better find ways of obeying His will if we as a church are going to survive this generation.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I've heard alot about Smith Wigglesworth, and he seems to be an amazing man.

I have no idea wether he really said "I never read any other book" or not. Its true that quotes are often falsely attributed to people, or their original words are lost and twisted into a legendary quote. Some of the most well known and oft used quotes are either misattributed (attributed to the wrong person) or are not the exact words spoken etc etc.

Like I said, I have no idea if SW spoke those words or not. I can only say if he did my response would be "nobody is perfect".
The fact that SW was used of God and had mighty miracles occur at his meetings doesn't make him infallible and everything he said and taught must still be evaluated on its own merit.

Some people are deffinetly more credible than others, and thus probably much more worth paying attention to and thinking about what they say... yet even the most brilliant most annointed man can be wrong sometimes.. and even the dumbest village idiot can be right occasionally.

In other words, ideas have to be judged ultimately on their own merits, not by who said them.

 

[Larry_Fout]

I'm new here but have been reading this thread with much interest. Smith Wigglesworth was a very interesting man. Wish he were around today. I'd love to meet and talk with him. Below is a link to a brief synopsis concerning him. Since I do not have enough time in grade to post a link I'm going to place * where the "w" should go. It can then be copied into a browser and replace the asterisks with a "w". Hope that works.

***.ag.org/enrichmentjournal/199801/070_wigglesworth.cfm


Oscarr I like your style.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Oscarr,

Those are questions (about why we don't see things) I've often asked myself. There are a couple of things I think are at least part of the reasons why we don't.

First is that we (modern american christians) really aren't devoted. Most of us, myself included, consider it a hardship to even think about fasting once in a while, or getting up early to pray and seek God. We also tend to consider the idea of waiting and persevering to be a form of persecution

Secondly, the reason many of the contemporary ministries seem empty by comparison to the earier examples such as SW, is loss of focus. Many have begun to focus on the power and desire the power for its own ends. Jesus said to his disciples "rejoice not that demons are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the book of life".
The power of God is necessary, but it is only a means to an end. It is like Jesus said about life... if you seek to save your life you will lose it, but if you lose it for his sake you will find it. If you seek the power of God for the sake of having power you will end up with the emptiness of outward show.
If on the other hand you seek God, seek to truly be a vessel of God's presense in this world, His Holy Spirit will be manifest in you and in the ministry he gives you to do.

 

[JimB]

I am convinced, after years of studying the guy, that most/many of the reports of Wigglesworth’s exploits are legendary and not based in fact, just on unconfirmed reports from his admiring followers. This is not to diminish Wigglesworth or his effectiveness as a minister, but I know too many famous men who have deeds attached to them that never happened.

One of them was a close relation of my wife who became a legendary evangelist and church planter in the 1930s-60s. I would hear his name crop up in a sermon every now and then, recounting some healing or miracle or deed that was supposed to have happened in one of his meetings. The preacher did not know I was there, usually, and would embellish the story to suit his needs in the service. Some of the stories, while based on a grain of truth, were largely manufactured, embellished and passed on from one preacher to another until my wife’s uncle had reached legendary status. This is exactly what I believe happened with Wigglesworth.

I once recounted some of these stories to Uncle S--- just before he passed away. He slapped his knee and laughed and said that if they were just half true he would have really been worth going to see. Smith Wigglesworth would probably do the same.

~Jim

 

[SharonL]

You know, these threads that insist on mentioning individuals only draw the extremes of those who have either undeserved admiration or unwarranted criticism for the subject of the OP. These kind of threads seem to only stir up animosities. Wouldn’t it be better to deal with the issues that face Pentecostals/Charismatics than the celebrities who only draw gratuitous praise/condemnation?

~Jim{/quote}

What is wrong with pointing out a person whose faith is not the normal run of the mill and showed people what you can do by having faith. He is a real inspiration. This does have to do with Pentecostals/Charismatics - it is a real inspiration of growing your faith.

 

[JimB]

What is wrong with pointing out a person whose faith is not the normal run of the mill and showed people what you can do by having faith. He is a real inspiration. This does have to do with Pentecostals/Charismatics - it is a real inspiration of growing your faith.

It is the truth that makes us free, Sharon, not fables, no matter how much we would like for them to be true.

~Jim

 

[Larry_Fout]

I'm new here so don't really know anyone so forgive me if I seem too bold. Don't know how to do the "quote" thing yet!! I'm not sure about how much of SW is legend or fact. I wasn't there. Believe it or not I'm not quite that old Is it improper here to discuss history as it is reported by trusted sources?
Personally it seems very inspiring to me to read about past warriors even if we must rely on the truthfulness of those who describe them. For example, I think I have something like 8 posts so far and this thread is the only one that I've posted more than once and have read all comments. Once we heard an entire sermon given on the speech of Patrick Henry, you know, "Give me Liberty or Give me Death"! It was dynamic.

A couple of the passages that really stick out in my mind:
"But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. "

"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. "

So just wanted to say thanks for those who started this thread and have contributed opinions. It's been interesting.

God Bless You All!!!!

 

[peacechild4]

In my younger days, I fellowshipped with a number of people who met Smith Wigglesworth and attended his meetings when he came out to New Zealand in 1927. I also had many hours of great fellowship with Walter Cantrell, who was Smith Wigglesworth's pianist for his meetings throughout New Zealand. He had many stories to tell about the healings he saw, and many anecdotes about the man himself. I believe that Wigglesworth's ministry compares with that of Peter and John in the book of Acts. They had a powerful healing ministry that attracted thousands of people from all over the region, and when they were healed, they asked "Where did this power to heal come from?" and this opened the way for Peter and John to preach the gospel to them with amazing results. Smith Wigglesworth was the same. His first meeting in the Wellington town hall was attended by about 50 people. His attitude was that people would come when people got healed. In that first meeting there were some amazing healings (attested to later by doctor's reports). The next night there were so many people, that hundreds had to be turned away because the town hall was absolutely packed to capacity.

The point I am making here is that healing is a tool to get people to stop and listen to the gospel. In these hardened days, the mere words of the gospel are falling on deaf ears, because most people are not interested in religious gobbledigook, which is all people get if the preaching of the gospel is not accompanied by demonstration of His power.

To those who criticise demonstrations of power, remember that this is the way that God did it in the book of Acts. He demonstrated his power in healing and deliverance, and then when He got the attention of people through those things, the gospel was preached and those people got saved - thousands of them at one time.

I answer the critics with "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" If God's way in the book of Acts was to demonstrate His power in healing and deliverance to get people to hear and believe the gospel, is it not right for Him to do the same in these days?

These days, some preacher gets up, preaches a sermon based on mere words, and then expects souls to be saved by some magical process without the demonstration of healing and deliverance. This happens in 90 percent of our churches. No wonder very few people are getting saved, and whole denominations are declining and dying.

Evangelistic sermons and missions are barren without the presence of the power of God to heal people and deliver them from demons and bondage. And I think that the real power of God is more than someone getting up and preaching 'healing' and then telling people that they haven't enough faith if they don't get healed under his ministry. It is not the fault of the people - it is because the guy's ministry is barren and the power of God is not with him.

This was the difference with Smith Wigglesworth. His ministry was fruitful and not barren. God honoured and supported Him by demonstrations of His divine power. We need to find out why he was able to minister this way and have proven success in the healing ministry when the vast majority of big name healing ministries in the United States and elsewhere can offer only empty barren words and no real healings.

We need to ask ourselves and God why He is not supporting and honouring our contemporary healing evangelists; why people are going thousands of miles to get to a meeting and then being cruelling disappointed because the preacher can't back his assertions with demonstrations of the power of God.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus will heal today, because there was never a time that demonstrations of the power of God are needed than today. If we don't have demonstrations of the power of God in our evangelism, we will lose vast areas of our countries to Islam. The Muslim faith is sweeping the world, and modern day evangelists have no answer to them. Without demonstrations of the power of God, our churches will crumble, and be replaced by mosques.

But what will stop the advance of Islam is a demonstration of the power of God supporting the evangelism of the Christian church, where people are healed and delivered by that power, and that people everywhere will know that we follow a Jesus who is alive and active in the world today.

The big problem with preaching the gospel in the world today is the indifference of the people who hear it. Their reaction is "so what?" This is why we need to have the power of God accompanying our evangelism. We need more than mere words. We need to show the world that our God is a living and powerful God; and the way He did it in the book of Acts is the way He ordained it; so we'd better find ways of obeying His will if we as a church are going to survive this generation.

Amen Oscar...

Many have asked for miracles and still do.. and for many of the them there is none given.. as there was none given for the teachers of the Law who demanded them in Jesus day..

Jesus did not come for the well but for the sick... and the sick need miracles..

Yes amen ...

Those that ask shall recieve.. and they that seek will find.. and those that knock the door shall be opened unto them!!
Matthew 7:7