Sleepovers

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

I wouldn't suggest this for everyone because not everyone can handle situations and temptations as well as my boyfriend and I can.
We have slept in the same house, same room, same bed. We actually sleep, though. We haven't had sex, we don't intend to, and we won't, before we get married. We are both accountable to each other, to God, to people in our lives that we promised to that we wouldn't have sex.
I don't think supervision should be necessary. Seriously, people need to be able to control themselves without having other people involved. By all means, if you must have others involved, go ahead. But what kind of fear does this kind of thing breed? "Oh no, I can't go to that concert near his place later in the evening, what if I get stuck there and I have to stay at his place!! We'll have sex! and God will kill us!!" Shouldn't there be more maturity than that?
Yes, there is a between sleeping in the same bed, and actually sleeping, and sleeping in the same bed and doing more than you should (sex, things put past your boundaries, etc.).

If your boundaries include "no sleeping in the same bed" or "no sleeping in the same room" or "no sleeping in the same house", then fine, but I don't think you should pin your boundaries on me. I will openly say that my way is not for everyone, but I don't believe God has a problem with how my boyfriend and I conduct ourselves.

 

[Briseis]

I wouldn't suggest this for everyone because not everyone can handle situations and temptations as well as my boyfriend and I can.
We have slept in the same house, same room, same bed. We actually sleep, though. We haven't had sex, we don't intend to, and we won't, before we get married. We are both accountable to each other, to God, to people in our lives that we promised to that we wouldn't have sex.
I don't think supervision should be necessary. Seriously, people need to be able to control themselves without having other people involved. By all means, if you must have others involved, go ahead. But what kind of fear does this kind of thing breed? "Oh no, I can't go to that concert near his place later in the evening, what if I get stuck there and I have to stay at his place!! We'll have sex! and God will kill us!!" Shouldn't there be more maturity than that?
Yes, there is a between sleeping in the same bed, and actually sleeping, and sleeping in the same bed and doing more than you should (sex, things put past your boundaries, etc.).

If your boundaries include "no sleeping in the same bed" or "no sleeping in the same room" or "no sleeping in the same house", then fine, but I don't think you should pin your boundaries on me. I will openly say that my way is not for everyone, but I don't believe God has a problem with how my boyfriend and I conduct ourselves.

I dont sleep in the same bed as my bf not because we cant handle ourselves and not because I think it is a sin, but because it will make it that much more special when we are married. I am not saying that there is only one way that things should go, but I just wonder what you think of that as it applies to you.

 

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

It's interesting that you point that out. One of the things I look forward to most in my marriage with him is just that.. the sleeping. Every night. Falling asleep next to him, and waking up next to him. That is more exciting than the sex, to me. That closeness is something I cherish, but it came to the point where we were asking ourselves the question, "What's the difference between taking a long nap together, and sleeping at night together, besides time of day?"
We don't have problems controlling ourselves, and we don't think it's sinful, and we are both very excited to share in that closeness, every night. I don't think it will lose any "specialness" because we share a bed once in a while.

 

[eyeliv4God]

Dont be so harsh. Her convictions are not hurting you.

That's exactly what I was thinking... there's nothing wrong with having different opinions, and if you're strong enough to be able to sleep over without supervision, hey, more power to ya'! However, I don't think maturity has anything to do with this issue. What I mean by that is, whether or not you need supervision doesn't determine your maturity level.

Everyone is different. There's nothing wrong with being different. Some people are stronger than others. For those who have to rely on others to help keep them accountable... kudos to them, too, for doing the right thing and taking responsibility as a Christian.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

I'm sorry, but this is just... perverted. Seriously.

Your consciences have been severly trampled upon, twisted and burnt when you're actually feeling seriously convicted after merely sleeping in the same room. I mean, think about it. What in the world is wrong with that? What possible harm would it ever do? Are you guys equally controlled by your guilty conscience in other matters too?

Why is it wrong or harmful to sleep in the same room or bed? Do you believe it's "God's will" or something like that?

I know I could never live like that. Going from never even having slept in the same room as my mate, to being married and suddenly "allowed" to do whatever we'd like. I'd be nervous as heck, it'd be more strange than anything.

And it's certainly not natural to do it this way. Your body, heart and soul isn't programmed to spend a lifetime controlling (and in many cases denying) all your intimate and sexual emotions, and then, in the blink of an "I now pronounce you man and wife" turn completely around and feel free to do all these sexual things. No, that guilty conscience you're feeling right now, is going to follow you for years. It doesn't change because of a ceremony. You'll have to twist it all the way back, and it's a long and tiring process. Or it'll take a miracle. You'll both need it, and fortunately God is able to give it. I just wish so many people wouldn't need it in the first place.

There are far too many Christians who have had sex because they did not have boundaries, to say that no one needs accountability or nothing is off limits except for the act of intercourse alone. We should be supporting our brothers and sisters who are trying to be obedient to God by remaining chaste until marriage, not telling them they're perverted for trying to remain obedient to God.

 

[holo]

Sorry for being too harsh. That being said, I think a lot of the christian rules, esp. the american ones, on sex are far too harsh themselves.

It's not that I'm not accountable, it's who I'm accountable to. I think all these rules are actually making people more helpless. We're really telling people that "hey, you won't be able to control yourself, your common sense isn't good enough, you don't know good enough, don't follow you heart but have this rule instead, don't trust yourself or your partner..." ok, it's pinpointed, but you get the idea.

I mean, I even hear of (american) christians who vow not to have intercourse until they're married. When they're, like, 16 years old! That terrifies me. It places so little trust in people, and it also assumes you need some other kind of motivation in addition to respect for yourself and your partner, to stay "pure".

As for me, I personally don't lay down rules for sexual activities, apart from "take your time, respect your woman as much as you possibly can, and never ever pressure her into anything". She, on the other hand, is very determined to not have intercourse before she's married, and I obviously respect, cherish and encourage that. I have my share of hormones, but I really don't need anything but my love and respect for her in order to stay off. I'm not saying I love her more than anybody else love their partner, but thankfully my love isn't constantly being disturbed by a nagging conscience, morality, or a rule-oriented way of thinking. That makes it a lot easier.

Love is always the solution. Love will tell you what to do in every situation like this.

 

[YouthPastor]

Sorry for being too harsh. That being said, I think a lot of the christian rules, esp. the american ones, on sex are far too harsh themselves.

It's not that I'm not accountable, it's who I'm accountable to. I think all these rules are actually making people more helpless. We're really telling people that "hey, you won't be able to control yourself, your common sense isn't good enough, you don't know good enough, don't follow you heart but have this rule instead, don't trust yourself or your partner..." ok, it's pinpointed, but you get the idea.

I mean, I even hear of (american) christians who vow not to have intercourse until they're married. When they're, like, 16 years old! That terrifies me. It places so little trust in people, and it also assumes you need some other kind of motivation in addition to respect for yourself and your partner, to stay "pure".

As for me, I personally don't lay down rules for sexual activities, apart from "take your time, respect your woman as much as you possibly can, and never ever pressure her into anything". She, on the other hand, is very determined to not have intercourse before she's married, and I obviously respect, cherish and encourage that. I have my share of hormones, but I really don't need anything but my love and respect for her in order to stay off. I'm not saying I love her more than anybody else love their partner, but thankfully my love isn't constantly being disturbed by a nagging conscience, morality, or a rule-oriented way of thinking. That makes it a lot easier.

Love is always the solution. Love will tell you what to do in every situation like this.

Although - God does lay down rules for sexual behavior.

 

[TwistedLogic]

I don't see a big problem with sleepovers, assuming those involved have enough respect for each other and thier beliefs not to do anything outide of thier personal boundaries. I for one have been in similar situations many times. Most of my friends are girls even though I'm a guy, and we've hung out (as a group though) at each others' houses even sleeping in the same room, on the same couch, etc. Nothing's ever happened becuase we all respect each other too mcuh too.

I don't have a gf but if I did, I wouldn't see a problem with sleepin over at each others' houses. I'm going to sound repetitive here of what others have said before me, but as long as the two of is have an understanding of what's acceptable and what's not then I see no reason to even have an adult in the house with us. We wouldn't even need written rules to follow, just our respect for each other and our beliefs. JMHO

 

[eyeliv4God]

Although - God does lay down rules for sexual behavior.

Amen- it clearly states these in the Bible!

 

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

But really.. how clear is it?

How often are there threads in here about "how far is too far?"?
I understand that the Bible gives instruction about sexual immorality, but it's not like it says "No kissing below the neck, no sleepovers, no accidental [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], no being in a bedroom without others present.."

There are huge gray areas between what is a fair amount of physical, mental and emotional intimacy in a relationship and what is too much.

 

[YouthPastor]

But really.. how clear is it?

How often are there threads in here about "how far is too far?"?
I understand that the Bible gives instruction about sexual immorality, but it's not like it says "No kissing below the neck, no sleepovers, no accidental [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], no being in a bedroom without others present.."

There are huge gray areas between what is a fair amount of physical, mental and emotional intimacy in a relationship and what is too much.

One thing that amazes me (but not really) is how Christians want to get so close to the "line" we always want to ask, ""Where is the line", How far is too far?

Why is it that instead of taking the high road - we want to take the pleasure road. Here might be a good suggestion.... when it comes to moral issues, if your grandmother would do it - ok. if she would - then would your great-grandmother?

We in America (and christianity in general) have allowed society to take away morals. Instead of changing thw world - the world has changed the church - and when it comes to the issues of morality - it has been for the worse.


we are called to come out of the world - yet most don't want to. it is easy to explain it away and make something ok for convience or whatever -

Gee, I wonder if Jesus would have slept in the same room as mary or martha?

I can just see jesus, if he had a girl friend, over in the corner getting hot an heavy but not touching intimate parts.

why do we as christians want to be as close as possible to the "line"

 

[holo]

I think you're being a little unfair, YouthPastor.

Picturing Jesus with a girlfriend is kind of picturing Him on the toilet - weird, and largely useless. I mean, I'm not going to wear sandals just because He did.

And I don't agree society has taken away morals from the church. Rather, the church has been stuffed and filled with morals at the expence of love (I know, it's a bold and general statement). Instead of offering our kids trust and allowing them to learn and walk uprightly by themselves, we've crippled them and made them dependant on all sorts of rules. I see it all the time: people are asking "is cleavage a sin," "is Nintendo a sin," "is the line below the neck or above the waist" - IMO these are sad signs that people don't even know God. He and His will has turned into a riddle, a mystery, and we despise our own common sense.

I don't think the kids are just trying to see how far they can go. I think they're confused. I think they don't know what to do because they have a lot of morals, but few real values. They know this is wrong and that is right, but they don't know why. They don't choose, they just don't know who to follow.

I'm not saying this is how it is, always and everywhere, just trying to offer a different perspective on it. Let's not underestimate ourselves. Let's not say the world has us beat. Let's not say the devil is somehow stronger than God.

 

[YouthPastor]

I think you're being a little unfair, YouthPastor.


And I don't agree society has taken away morals from the church. Rather, the church has been stuffed and filled with morals at the expence of love (I know, it's a bold and general statement). Instead of offering our kids trust and allowing them to learn and walk uprightly by themselves, we've crippled them and made them dependant on all sorts of rules.

Just talking about morals here - not all the other junk in church history - so for 2000 years this would not have been an issue - but since the 60's and "sexual liberation" - the sexual liberation group had it all right and the church for almost had it all wrong (purity modesty etc.)

That's a hard one to take. that the sexual revolution/liberation movement that made sex just an act of fun, lust "love" etc.. but no committment needed has it right when it comes to morals.

 

[YouthPastor]

I think you're being a little unfair, YouthPastor.



Instead of offering our kids trust and allowing them to learn and walk uprightly by themselves, we've crippled them and made them dependant on all sorts of rules. I see it all the time: people are asking "is cleavage a sin," "is Nintendo a sin," "is the line below the neck or above the waist" - IMO these are sad signs that people don't even know God. He and His will has turned into a riddle, a mystery, and we despise our own common sense.

Allow them to figure out eveything by themselves...

so, if your child was about to reach for a hot pan on the stove.... you would let him just "learn" on his own?

If he is about to steal something from a store, you are just going to let him learn on his own?

 

[holo]

Well, I'm not so sure people didn't have irresponsible sex for fun before the "sexual reavolution" - but yeah, it may be "worse" now. And/or maybe it's just more exposed. In any case, I don't believe morality is ever the answer. I tend to see morality more as a painkiller that camouflages the real sickness, which is a lack of God. Personally, I've never had the Lord offer me morality, but grace and love. What you'd consider "morality" would be one of the effects of this love, if you know what I mean.

Obviously we all need more or less protection from people who don't know better than to, say, steal from us. And a child needs instruction to keep from hurting himself. But I hardly think sexual experiences can/should be likened to stealing or touching hot stoves. I mean, stealing and climbing in kitchens aren't deep-founded parts of our nature, it's not part of our identities. And it shouldn't be feared.

I figure the church (in general) is guilty of a lot of the sexual perversion around, because sex has been labeled as dirty, sinful, improper, it's been ignored and pressured into all kinds of norms and containers, a lot of them not very healthy. I think it's clearest in the pedophilia scandals in the catholic church - you can deny people to marry or touch, but you can't deny their urges, their God-given sexual drives. Hold something down long enough, and it will rot and grow hard and perverted. There's no way for it to grow naturally, since it never sees daylight.

 

[Briseis]

I'm not saying I love her more than anybody else love their partner, but thankfully my love isn't constantly being disturbed by a nagging conscience, morality, or a rule-oriented way of thinking. That makes it a lot easier.

Just because some people have a much stronger sex drive doesnt mean they dont love and respect their SO. Leave it at that, and leave them/us alone.

I'm not going to wear sandals just because He did.

I cant believe you said that. I know that obviously we dont have to all wear sandals, but that is not what you meant. This seemed like a weak attempt to avoid the subject, since we all know that what Jesus would do is always the best way, and you dont want to admit it. We can accept the fact that you are not a carbon copy, none of us are, and we can support each other in our areas of weaknesss, instead of denying Christ as our example. We are all Christians and whether or not we should be endeavoring to be more like Jesus should never be a question. I am so shocked.

 

[holo]

Just because some people have a much stronger sex drive doesnt mean they dont love and respect their SO. Leave it at that, and leave them/us alone.

I wasn't suggesting other people have higher sex drives than me, in fact I think mine is higher than average, if anything. Neither am I saying people don't respect and love their SOs, but I don't think it should be morality and discipline and rules that decide how far people (don't) go.

I cant believe you said that. I know that obviously we dont have to all wear sandals, but that is not what you meant. This seemed like a weak attempt to avoid the subject, since we all know that what Jesus would do is always the best way, and you dont want to admit it. We can accept the fact that you are not a carbon copy, none of us are, and we can support each other in our areas of weaknesss, instead of denying Christ as our example. We are all Christians and whether or not we should be endeavoring to be more like Jesus should never be a question. I am so shocked.

I think you got me wrong here. I mean, can you picture Jesus with a girlfriend at all? If so, would they cuddle? Kiss? How far would Jesus go? Do you really think about that when you're with your boyfriend? I don't think that's healthy, because you're not Him. I'm not Him. I don't even live in Israel. I don't have His wisdom or His authority. I don't have His mission. I do, however, have His Spirit in me, to guide me, even in matters as private as these.

I'm not denying Christ as an example, in fact I'd like to promote Him as an example - He communicated with the Father all the time, He was led by the Spirit. Therefore, I would like to be led by the Spirit also. Just as Paul was led to go here and Jonah was led to go there, I'd like to be in touch with the same Spirit. When I have to make a choice, I don't need to know what Paul DID or what Jesus WOULD have done, but what God would have me DO, here, now. It's probably not the exact same thing as He'd have YOU do, there, then. See?

 

[Briseis]

I wasn't suggesting other people have higher sex drives than me, in fact I think mine is higher than average, if anything. Neither am I saying people don't respect and love their SOs, but I don't think it should be morality and discipline and rules that decide how far people (don't) go.

Well, I'd hope that respect and love are part of the reason that they make the rules in the first place.

I think you got me wrong here. I mean, can you picture Jesus with a girlfriend at all? If so, would they cuddle? Kiss? How far would Jesus go? Do you really think about that when you're with your boyfriend? I don't think that's healthy, because you're not Him. I'm not Him. I don't even live in Israel. I don't have His wisdom or His authority. I don't have His mission. I do, however, have His Spirit in me, to guide me, even in matters as private as these.

Well, I still think that we can use Jesus example in this case, even though he didnt have a gf. Not what did Jesus do, but what would Jesus do.