Slavery in the OT

[wsgqapu_ap]

I would think you just found one VERY satisfying answer? I'd be surprised if others haven't already plumbed the questions you have. In fact, I'd be surprised if I haven't; but G-d knows, and delights in showing us what we didn't know ...

Hi razeontherock,

I'm not sure if this is how you took my post, but I posted that verse to say that that verse makes no sense why God would tolerate and regulate slavery, so it was more of a "Grr! This doesn't make any sense! *bangs head against wall" than a "I found a satisfying answer" kind of thing.

Or if you thought I concluded that "the only satisfying answer is that there aren't answers and it's a big mystery, and I'm going to leave it all up to God", it wasn't that either. It was more, I think I'm seriously considering leaving Christianity because I can't find any answers to these questions I feel are crucially important.

I wish I'd found a very satisfying answer. I really do.

 

[Dragons87]

The question I'd ask then is if God didn't like slavery from the beginning, why didn't he tell them that He would allow them to have slaves, but that it was still wrong? Instead, you see the law where God tells them not to beat their slaves to the point that they can't get up after more than a few days, and then stating that the slave is the property of the owner.

"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20-21

I just can't wrap my mind around that being okay, or God being okay with that. It really seems to contradict Leviticus 19:18:

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."

How can you beat a slave, yet love him or her as yourself?

I guess you could say God is just being patient with people, but he also seems pretty impatient and intolerant towards people sinning sometimes, often wiping out entire nations for being bad, so that seems a bit incongruous. And if he was being patient for people to change, why didn't he tell them they needed to change and that slavery was something they really shouldn't be doing, even though he permitted it?

I think you could warp the question a bit and just simply ask, "Why does God tolerate any kind of sin at all?" Slavery isn't the only sin to go around. God banned a whole load of other stuff that we still think it's normal, or even good, to do. Think about sex before marriage. God explicitly says no, but the western world still doesn't take notice. So I doubt the effectiveness of ending slavery with a commandment that says, "Don't keep slaves". Legislating for something doesn't mean accomplishing that something; it only makes it be known that you are merely trying.

But we've got God's patience. It's almost inexplicable how he can not only be tolerant of it, but still want to save those trapped by it. He is more concerned with slavery of the heart rather than the slavery of the body. And that is something you must accept. God cares for our eternal future more than he cares for our temporal existence.

Think about divorce. Moses' law explicitly allows it, but Jesus said that originally it wasn't like this. The law isn't meant to be the full explanation of God's will; Christ is. So I'd expect the law to have a few flaws here and there. After all, in some instances God disregards his own commandments for rituals if they are done ritually without a pureness of heart (as per Isaiah 1). If God has to deal with a cruel slave owner, the person's sin would be his cruelty, not that he is a slave owner.

 

[Dragons87]

Hi razeontherock,

I'm not sure if this is how you took my post, but I posted that verse to say that that verse makes no sense why God would tolerate and regulate slavery, so it was more of a "Grr! This doesn't make any sense! *bangs head against wall" than a "I found a satisfying answer" kind of thing.

Or if you thought I concluded that "the only satisfying answer is that there aren't answers and it's a big mystery, and I'm going to leave it all up to God", it wasn't that either. It was more, I think I'm seriously considering leaving Christianity because I can't find any answers to these questions I feel are crucially important.

I wish I'd found a very satisfying answer. I really do.

Hey, don't get stuck here! You might think it's an important issue (and it is), but it's not the most important one.

Over Christmas and new year I started reading a book about the history of Christianity written by a non-Christian historian. What he said challenged a lot of my thinking, and I began to question myself: "What if God isn't true?" I mean, it would be great if he were, but what if he isn't? My brain is prompting me to believe that God is a human construct, but my heart wants to believe that God is true because what the Bible says about God is really nice. In the end no human gave me an answer. God came and touched my heart with his love once again. I can't really explain it, except that all these mental struggles simply wore me down. But when I let go of them, still not have any answers to my questions, God proved himself to me beyond doubt. That was my most satisfying answer. My question still isn't satisfied completely; sometimes I still think to myself, "What if I'm worshipping nothing?", but every time God has his own way of reminding me to think about him.

Seek, and you shall find! Not answers! But God!

 

[Joveia]

"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20-21

I just can't wrap my mind around that being okay, or God being okay with that. It really seems to contradict Leviticus 19:18:

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."

How can you beat a slave, yet love him or her as yourself?

I guess you could say God is just being patient with people, but he also seems pretty impatient and intolerant towards people sinning sometimes, often wiping out entire nations for being bad, so that seems a bit incongruous. And if he was being patient for people to change, why didn't he tell them they needed to change and that slavery was something they really shouldn't be doing, even though he permitted it?

I just thought I'd mention an interesting verse from Deuteronomy (analysis here):

If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. 16 Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him. (Deut 23.15)

It's ambiguous as to whether this applies to all slaves or to foreign slaves, and commentators are divided on the issue. But what if it applies to all slaves?

Then there is a great escape clause in the law that really looks out for the interests of all slaves. Basically, if a slave thinks that the master is being mean or cruel then they can just run away and be a free person. This really takes away from the danger of verses that allow for a legitimate physical punishment for a slave.

Also, about the 'slave for life' thing, I'm not really sure about this, but I think that if a slave converted to Judaism then they would be considered an Israelite for all intents and purposes and thus they did not have to be slaves for life unless they chose to be.

 

[razeontherock]

Hi razeontherock,

I'm not sure if this is how you took my post, but I posted that verse to say that that verse makes no sense why God would tolerate and regulate slavery, so it was more of a "Grr! This doesn't make any sense! *bangs head against wall" than a "I found a satisfying answer" kind of thing.

Or if you thought I concluded that "the only satisfying answer is that there aren't answers and it's a big mystery, and I'm going to leave it all up to God", it wasn't that either. It was more, I think I'm seriously considering leaving Christianity because I can't find any answers to these questions I feel are crucially important.

I wish I'd found a very satisfying answer. I really do.

Gotcha! I understand your position all too well, and you are in an excellent position, provided you can display the same kind of patience Moses did when he turned aside to see the burning bush. I'm cautioning you that you are at a major intersection, and just like a yellow light, you want to proceed with caution.

The "satisfying answer" I referred to was the passage from Chronicles you posted. You know injustice is not something G-d tolerates.

Ok. So then how do we make sense of other things that are clearly injustice? This is a difficult topic, and rather than doing it the injustice of pretending I can explain it all away in 1 post, allow me to point out these things CAN be reconciled! And while I don't want to remove the aspect of our intellect from the process, what it's really about is getting to know G-d Himself. Even the Apostle Paul wanted to get to know Him better ...

The way you're feeling as you write these posts is very definitely a part of
G-d Discipling you. "He that endures to the end shall be saved;" not something to take lightly

Press on Brother!

 

[hisgrace26]

I know this is going to be a waste of time, but you need to understand that slavery in the Bible was profoundly different than it is in our time.

First of all, the Bible ALWAYS condemned that kind of slavery we commonly think of today when we think about slavery or see it portrayed in movies such as "Roots" or "Amistad". We see this condemnation in both Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10.

What you have to realize is that slavery in the Bible was primarily indenture based. That is, that a person agreed to act as a servent for a given number or years or until a debt was paid off. In this case, the slave entered into slavery willingly.

What's more, in many cases, the slaves were considered to be one of the family and were given the authority to carry out business and legal transactions o the part of the master, as well as often inheriting a part of the master's estate upon his death.

Don't confuse this with the African slavery you see on TV. Two completely different things.

Galatians 4:28-31 seems to suggest that they were not willingly entered slavery.

 

[hisgrace26]

anybody want to elaborate these verses?

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Does this has anything to do with people not willingly entered as slaves? Or did I get it wrong?

 

[razeontherock]

No, this has nothing to do with people entering slavery willingly, or not. Does Scripture address Hagar's becoming servant of Abraham?

Even if not, we certainly have enough records of Abraham's hospitality to know that she was treated far better than a present-day McDonald's employee, for example.

When Scripture refers to such things, it has no bearing on our modern day concept of "slavery." Hermeneutics are in order here!

 

[hisgrace26]

No, this has nothing to do with people entering slavery willingly, or not. Does Scripture address Hagar's becoming servant of Abraham?

Even if not, we certainly have enough records of Abraham's hospitality to know that she was treated far better than a present-day McDonald's employee, for example.

When Scripture refers to such things, it has no bearing on our modern day concept of "slavery." Hermeneutics are in order here!

if you read the verse i quote, the child is born into a slave. Not willingly. the child was born into a slave. luck?

 

[razeontherock]

Why do you ignore Hagar?

 

[hisgrace26]

Why do you ignore Hagar?

did she? did the scripture says that?

 

[razeontherock]

did she? did the scripture says that?

Um, got English? Try again?

 

[hisgrace26]

Um, got English? Try again?

i'm asking you. where did it say that? don't ask if i got english when you're the one who bring it up.

here the bible allow purchasing slaves:

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

care to explain that?

 

[rubicontwentytwelve]

Why is slavery mentioned in the old testament with no attempt to deter people from it? I think everyone here would agree that slavery is immoral, it seems strange that a book meant as a moral guide would bring up such a subject without emphasising the immorality of it.

Is there a logical explanation for this? It's just that I feel uncomfortable in the knowlege that these books are taken as moral guidelines.

First of all one needs to define slavery. Slavery consists of many different things / situations throughtout the Bible.

Are you in debt, or do you have a mortgage? If you do or are, Biblically you are endentured to your lender for the term of the debt.

Is the nation you hold citizenship in indebted? If it is then you as a citizen of that nation are endentured to the lender nation(s), unless you or someone else has paid off your share, as a citizen, of that national debt.

Are you following God's ways? If not He is not your master, but rather you are enslaved to the god of adversary, Satan. what is the penalty for knowing God's ways but not following them? Biblically speaking its national slavery or death, as evidenced by Israel's and Judah's penalties for doing so..

Then of course there's slavery to corrupt teachings, which can be avoided if one follow's God's commandment in 1 thes 5v21.

Then there's enslavement to one's own opinions (vain imaginations), where one refuses to believe what one reads or is taught of the truth, favoring instead to believe as one's self wills.

Is slavery a valued instructional tool? It should be. But when men choose from generation to generation to enslave themselves, prefering it as an acceptable condition in which to live, it is extremely difficult to pry them away from its ' comforts '; as they become institutionalized to it; it providing all their needs.

The only case in which slavery is not an effect is that in which one has entered into it willingly, thoroughly understanding the implications and requirements of one doing so.

Want to erase involuntary slavery? First one must seek to free oneself of its causes.

 

[hisgrace26]

First of all one needs to define slavery. Slavery consists of many different things / situations throughtout the Bible.

Are you in debt, or do you have a mortgage? If you do or are, Biblically you are endentured to your lender for the term of the debt.

Is the nation you hold citizenship in indebted? If it is then you as a citizen of that nation are endentured to the lender nation(s), unless you or someone else has paid off your share, as a citizen, of that national debt.

Are you following God's ways? If not He is not your master, but rather you are enslaved to the god of adversary, Satan. what is the penalty for knowing God's ways but not following them? Biblically speaking its national slavery or death, as evidenced by Israel's and Judah's penalties for doing so..

Then of course there's slavery to corrupt teachings, which can be avoided if one follow's God's commandment in 1 thes 5v21.

Then there's enslavement to one's own opinions (vain imaginations), where one refuses to believe what one reads or is taught of the truth, favoring instead to believe as one's self wills.

Is slavery a valued instructional tool? It should be. But when men choose from generation to generation to enslave themselves, prefering it as an acceptable condition in which to live, it is extremely difficult to pry them away from its ' comforts '; as they become institutionalized to it; it providing all their needs.

The only case in which slavery is not an effect is that in which one has entered into it willingly, thoroughly understanding the implications and requirements of one doing so.

Want to erase involuntary slavery? First one must seek to free oneself of its causes.

how do you account for this buying slaves foreigner stuff:

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.


but among the brethren of israel they may not buy. why?

 

[hisgrace26]

also if you're not against it, then you are for it. why? why are you defending it?

 

[razeontherock]

i'm asking you. where did it say that? don't ask if i got english when you're the one who bring it up.

You wrote "did she?" I ask, did she WHAT?? I see no context in which this can make sense.

here the bible allow purchasing slaves:

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

care to explain that?

Note the phrase I emphasized. Care to address that?

 

[rubicontwentytwelve]

how do you account for this buying slaves foreigner stuff:

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.


but among the brethren of israel they may not buy. why?

Why did the heathen become bondmen in the first place?

What constituted one being a 'stranger' in ancient Israel? One being a tenent on/in the land? A stranger to the ways of God and Israel? If one is a tenent is one not subservient to he from whom he rents the land or house; the landlord, and as such is he not subject to said lord (master) ?

The other situation would be that of a stranger being a squatter, ... in which case becoming a slave might have been considered preferable to the alternative.