Slave Reparations

[Job_38]

What do you think? Should we pay the blacks of today money because their ancestors were slaves?

 

 

[Stormy]

No. If there were still people alive that had been forced into slavery, then I would think differently. The time for resititution has passed.

People should be paid for their work. I can understand why many black people would want to collect on the unpaid bill.

 

[Job_38]

What unpaid bill?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi!

Job_38 asked:

What unpaid bill?

I submit the following excerpt from Lincoln's Second Innaugural address:

One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the
Union, even by war; while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial en;argement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invoked His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be
answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh". If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through
His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the
woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether".

The "unpaid bill" was/is:

the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil

That being said, I do, however, agree with Stormy that the time for restitution in this case has passed. Calculating the cost reparations, from whom they would be collected & to whom they would be paid would give 100 actuaries , demographers & historians migraines to last for 100 years.

Be well!

ssv

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

There is an additional moral obligation to work to bring blacks out of poverty caused by slavery, but translating that into a legal and financial obligation is counterproductive.

 

[Job_38]

They can bring themselves out of it, but they have been taught to be victims and that they deserve a hand out.

 

[Brimshack]

My objection to reparations is strictly rhetorical. It bogs down real questions about how to achieve positive developments in minorities communities, and ties a lot of baggage about historical issues to community development. I can see the logic behind the claim that reparations are due, but I think it's a losing argument, for shear political reasons. The notion that people should be able to bring themselves out of poverty is morally compelling, but it completely ignores the realities of poverty. Some indviduals can and do work their way out of such aommunities, but the notion that entire ethnic groups should be able to solve problems caused at least partially by others by pulling themselves up by their own boostraps is no more realistic than the argument for reparations. Victimology is indeed rampant in minority politics, but the effort to blame large-scale patterns of wealth inequality that have lasted for many generations on contemporary liberal politics is a classic example of Hitler's Big Lie.

 

[Starscream]

They can bring themselves out of it, but they have been taught to be victims and that they deserve a hand out.

I'm not sure I'd be too quick to trivialize how hard it is to break out of poverty.  Would my life of turned out so great if my parents hadn't of been wealthy?  I doubt it.

Plus, I can see why they feel like victims:

 - do cocaine as a poor black man, go to prison

 - do cacaine as a rich white man, move to the White House

 

[Job_38]

Starscream, that was pathetic and nothing was gained.

My father was born into poverty, and now is a computer programer and living a pretty good life here.

 

[Brimshack]

Horatio Alger lives.

 

[Starscream]

Starscream, that was pathetic and nothing was gained.

umm...okay...

My father was born into poverty, and now is a computer programer and living a pretty good life here.

Well then, there you have it, that one example is all that is needed to show that those lazy blacks could get off their arses and make it work for them, right?

Perhaps your father wouldn't trivialize how difficult it was for him to acheive his success?  Perhaps your father recognizes that for those born into wealth such success could be attained much easier.

 

[Starscream]

FYI:

Myself, having been raised in a privilaged home, and never having to worry about money for housing, clothing, school, food, transportation, computers, entertainment, etc, etc., ect, would never, never, never look down my nose at those less fortunate then I was and even suggest that they can easily overcome the challenges that come with being poor.

And I'm the one whose input is pathetic!?

 

[Job_38]

I never once called you pathetic. I called that last part of your post pathetic. So we can clear that up!

I never said it would be easily attained, I saw from my father and my grandfather and his father and my forefathers that it is difficult, and many of them only achieved the status of low income, still rising out of poverty.

I do not look down on those who are poor, only those who do not do anything to rise above it.

 

[GraftMeIn]

hmmmmmmmm

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

What they want is millions of acres, and lots of money.

I guess my thoughts on this are, If they think they have something coming to them, then let them take their case to court. Each one individualy. Each one must prove they had a family member that was held as a slave. Then once this is proven, they must find the family members of those who held that family member as a slave and sue them. And only one member of each family can sue. for some reason I feel the case would never hold up in court.

I can't help but feel they want something for nothing. There's plenty of African Americans who have made their way in the world, and there are also many whites that are poor, and under priveledged just like some of them are.

I think it's also important that we don't start looking at every African American out there, and thinking they hold the same view as the ones wanting these things.

 

[Job_38]

Its a rascist belief to think that all blacks are in poverty and that all whites, being white, had forefathers who owned slaves.

 

[Job_38]

I think it's also important that we don't start looking at every African American out there, and thinking they hold the same view as the ones wanting these things

Oh I don't. I know alot that think it is dumb and do not doubt the majority of blacks want to succeed and live a good life and do many PEOPLE.

 

[Brimshack]

That's not how a case like this would work Graft. You could certainly expcet them to show that they are descended from slaves, and that this has caused them harm. The trouble is it wouldn't be too hard for most blacks to do that. But each case wouldn't have to be settled individually. It would be a class-action suit, and they could just as easily name the U.S. itself for promoting and then tolerating slavery as a matter of practice.

As for the idea of something for nothing; well that would hardly make pro-reparationists unique now would it? If the practice of slaver itself doesn't qualify, then I don't know what does, but we don't dismiss founding fathers such as Madison, Jefferson, or Washington (a bit of a gold-digger besides) as lazy and opportunistic. No they get credit for "building a nation," which of course means forcing others to build it for them. There is something to be said for the idea that America's wealthy have derived something for nothing in the heritage of slavery itself.

Graft and Job:

Yes, there are a number of blacks that are not poor, and there are a number of blacks that don't support reparations, but neither of these facts should be used to ignore the general patterns of inequality that do affect African American communities. If reparations aren't the answer, then so be it, but telling people to deal with it as individuals is about the same as sticking your head in the sand and saying I don't see a problem here.

 

[PrinceJeff]

I thought we gave them something: affirmative action.

 

[ZiSunka]

The problems is, how would you determine the amount of damages?

My great grandmother was killed at Aushwitz, and that is much more recent than legal slavery. I would have never met her anyway, since she was about 85 in 1941 when she was killed. So in what way have I been damaged by her murder? How much compensation would I be due?

My great-great-great uncle was killed in the civil war. How much money should I be entitled to as compensation for his death?

We're talking about relationships so distant that they are meaningless in terms of damages and reparations. Reparations should be paid only to people who are actually harmed by the death of a relative, not to descendents so removed that they could never have known or benefited from a relationship with that person at all.

I think that unless each person can show that they were damaged by their great-great-great grandparent's slavery, and unless they can determine the actual value of the damage, nothing ought to be given to them.

Slavery ended 150 years ago. It's time to get over it and move on. Continuing to focus on it only keeps people from getting over the "poor me, victim" mentality.

 

[ZiSunka]

I think I'll sue the US for not getting involved in rescuing the victims of Auschwitz sooner! I should get money because my great-great-grandmother was killed there. I think I'm entitle to about $1 million, because how can you put a smaller value on human suffering and death? Yep, if the US had stormed the camp before she died, she might have lived for another 60 years until my grandparents and my mom were dead, then I could have inherited her entire estate, which at current interest rates would have been at least a million dollars. So maybe I should ask for two million, the value of her suffering and the potential inheritance that might have come to me.

Well, it's the same rationale, isn't it?