Six Day Creation? No Way!

[buzuxi02]

Obviously taking the 7 day creation to be literal 24 hour periods has its problems. For example no creation took place on the first day. Heaven and Earth being created on the 2nd day on. Scripture says that the moon and stars are given for times and seasons.

So linear time didn't begin until the second day, and cyclical time didn't begin till the fourth day.

 

[birdetto]

I'm considering taking the Literary Framework View of Genesis 1. If you're unfamiliar, this is the view that Genesis 1 is a poem or song that is using a six day framework in order to communicate truths about God and Creation, but not to be understood as six historical days. It's an argument from genre.

However before I really made a commitment to this view I wanted to try it on for size and see if it could be adequately defended. How would you challenge this view? I'll try my best in this thread to defend it.

Thanks TOL for your point. I believe that the Bible says that it is written as a parable, according to those rules of interpretation, as can be found in Mark 4. The law of God, the Bible, is called a parable in Psalm 78: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable". Again, the Bible clues us in to this in Mark 4:34: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples."

 

[Oseas]

You have so much right but you have this wrong. Complete the quote and you discover that a thousand years is like a day; meaning that God is timeless, not that His days are 1,000 years long. The creation took six solar days as is confirmed in Exodus 20:11.

Remember, the Bible explains the Bible. Let's see, Genesis is a plan of six days of work which God established previously for the restoration of all things, which were destroyed in the earth after the rebellion of the inhabitants of Eden, starting by the ruler of Eden, a former Cherub. There was a large period of time from the fall of the inhabitants of Eden until the first Day of God's work, maybe many many millenniums, this period is not revealed in the Bible. What we can say is that when God started His work of restoration of all things, “the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Gen.1:1). Here begin the mysteries:

1- The earth was formless. Yes, but in what sense? Geometric? No, absolutely not. The Word of God is not referring itself to the terrestrial globe geometrically round, but by figure it is referring to a population spiritually in thick darkness, and void, yea, void of the Spirit of God, without life and salvation, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Waters? Please, I do not believe that someone thinks the Spirit of God moved upon H2O. We know that the expression “waters or sea or deep” in the Bible it signifies several things, so we must use the word “waters” correctly in biblical interpretations, and it happens only by the Spirit and by wisdom, for example, in Rev. 17:v.15, waters are “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”. I must tell that in Genesis 1:1, waters verily are “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues” and not H2O, the Spirit of God did not move upon H2O. Later you will understand better this mystery in the message. The Bible explains the Bible.

But Gen.1:1-5 says:

v.1-In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. In the Bible, heaven is not the physical space of the Universe, but celestial regions in Christ JESUS or Dispensations established here on earth by our God, the Most High and Almighty God, like the Dispenstions of the OT and NT, which are the first and the second heavens. In truth, were created several heavens, the first (OT), the second(NT), the third heaven, that is the kingdom of God which will be established in this millennium, the millenium of Christ, and the heaven of the heavens, after end this new millennium in which we are living.

But the great mystery is: In the beginning God created...ie. In JESUS (and through JESUS) God created the heavens and the earth. (John1:1-3) In the beginning (in JESUS) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. And Heb.1:1-2- God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds.

The earth, in Gen.1:1 is the nation of Israel, created in the beginning in the first Day, in accord the promise made to the Abraham, and the waters are all Gentile peoples.

v.2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This I have explained above.

v.3 - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Well, the earth (Israel, the dry land) was without form in the first Day, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (sea). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the “waters” (“peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues” and not H2O),and God claimed in the midst of the darkeness: Let there be light (well, God is Light, when He claimed “Let there be light”, He meant: Let me be known of the peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues. And there was light.

v.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

This process continues yet.

v.5 - And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the FIRST Day.

Moses said: Psa. 90:4 - A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Keep this in mind, this plan of God for the restoration of all things is 6,000 years old, but not the appearance of Adam after the rebellion in Eden. From the time of the fall in the garden of Eden dwellers to the beginning of the works planned and expressed in the book of Genesis, there was a great and vast period of time. There were gigantic metamorphoses in this black and long period from the beginning of rebellion and fall in the Garden of Eden until the beginning of the works of the restoration of everything 6,000 years ago, according to Genesis the earth became an abyss of darkness, a chaos in all the senses of life, sin had multiplied and aggravated a lot, a chaos, after the rebellion in Eden, I repeat. It is important to know that we have just entered the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the week of God has 7 days, but as it was revealed to Moses, a thousand years are in the eyes of God as one day, as the day of yesterday that passed and as the watch of the night.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

. . .Utter foolishness.
Those who claim to believe in both the Scriptures and in evolution have a firm understanding of neither. . . . . .

Unless, of course, they actually do.

 

[Symph]

But the problem with saying you can't trust science is actually saying you can't trust God. Because science merely brings out what the stars, the rocks, and the genomes are telling us, and they were made directly by God.

The billions of years for the earth and the universe stand firmly established. Therefore, scripture must be understood in relation to those facts. Let me point to another fact about scripture.

Scripture over and over says the sun rose and set. It is described as moving across the sky. It is described as halting that motion at Joshua's command. This language is not poetic, it is literal.

Science has revealed the sun doesn't really do that, rather, the earth rotates as the cause of day and night. I can't bring myself to deny that science. Therefore, I re-interpret scripture about the sun rising and setting, and instead of clinging to a forced literal understanding, I allow the understanding that the writer was doing the best he knew as he wrote, and I see no problem allowing him to speak of the sun rising and setting.

It is my contention we can do the same with the age of the earth and the fact of evolution. It seems to me to be a better thing to do than to assert the scriptures are in error.

Its no use arguing against the science. The only way to do that is to first not understand it. Creationists demonstrate this over and over when they try to talk about science as they understand it.

No no no, TRUE science does those things. The science of the last like... 500 years? Not so much, been VERY agenda driven. Started out as a great idea, but them dang Masons man... they get their claws in everything.... But you do not have to believe that, you have not been down my rabbit trails, I have not been down yours.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Eh, I believe in the 7 day creation. Because the bible says we have to hope and trust in Him. Nothing is impossible. So if I doubt the story then I doubt Gods power.

 

[dad]

I'm considering taking the Literary Framework View of Genesis 1. If you're unfamiliar, this is the view that Genesis 1 is a poem or song that is using a six day framework in order to communicate truths about God and Creation, but not to be understood as six historical days.

When Jesus referred to the beginning and Adam, you think He was reciting Poetry?

 

[KWCrazy]

Unless, of course, they actually do.

Really? So did God create man or did man evolve without divine help?
Did the serpent in the Garden of Eden tempt Eve as the Scriptures say repeatedly?
When God wrote on stone tablets "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day," was He lying?

If you don't understand that evolution is in direct opposition to the Scriptures then yes, you understand neither. You can't believe two mutually exclusive descriptions of the same event. Either you reject evolution or you reject God's word. The truth, slightly compromised, is no longer the truth.

 

[Jamsie]

The structure of the Genesis 1 narrative commits clearly to one significant point - That God spoke and creation followed. "And God said,..." each day begins with those very words, so that God’s command was the source of all creation, also the sole and only operative agent. At the same time "And God said, let the land produce ..." establishes mediate creation.

 

[Pappy&Me]

But the problem with saying you can't trust science is actually saying you can't trust God. Because science merely brings out what the stars, the rocks, and the genomes are telling us, and they were made directly by God.

The billions of years for the earth and the universe stand firmly established. Therefore, scripture must be understood in relation to those facts. Let me point to another fact about scripture.

Scripture over and over says the sun rose and set. It is described as moving across the sky. It is described as halting that motion at Joshua's command. This language is not poetic, it is literal.

Science has revealed the sun doesn't really do that, rather, the earth rotates as the cause of day and night. I can't bring myself to deny that science. Therefore, I re-interpret scripture about the sun rising and setting, and instead of clinging to a forced literal understanding, I allow the understanding that the writer was doing the best he knew as he wrote, and I see no problem allowing him to speak of the sun rising and setting.

It is my contention we can do the same with the age of the earth and the fact of evolution. It seems to me to be a better thing to do than to assert the scriptures are in error.

Its no use arguing against the science. The only way to do that is to first not understand it. Creationists demonstrate this over and over when they try to talk about science as they understand it.

All in the Bible is not to be taken literily.
Even today the weather describes the sun and moon as setting, not the earth setting. Sun set and sun rise still used today.

 

[miamited]

Hi TOL,

Well, reading some of your responses, I see that you have held to a fairly strong belief in the most simple understanding of the historical account we find in the writings of the beginning.

One day we will all know the truth of this realm and its creation. I also firmly believe that we live in a created realm of existence. That it is a created realm not brought about by eons and ages of construct, but merely by the command of a being who has the power and authority to do such a thing.

As the Scriptures seem to fairly clearly portray, we live in a created realm and it will one day be brought to an end pretty much as quickly as it was created. A created realm that was created by a God who loves and creates such things. Just as God very likely created the angelic realm in which the angels of God live, he similarly created this realm of flesh in which we live. He is a God who creates out of nothing. In the Scriptures we find evidence that God claims to have created the angels in the angelic realm purposefully and individually. That there was a day that God's nemesis, Satan, was created.

Man, of course, looks at all of this great and massive creation and merely scratches his head and says, "No way!" We honestly have very little understanding of the true power and authority of our God. By whose command the sun stood still in the sky. By whose command the sun also moved backwards in the sky. By that same power and authority over all that He created to cause the light of the sun to shine just every day normal in a suburb of Egypt called Goshen, and yet be pitch dark in the land of Egypt proper for three days. Who can part a path through a deep, deep sea with literal walls of water standing straight as sentinels as a group of thousands of people merely walked through on the sea bed. That God can do things that we cannot even hope to imagine to do. Things for which no matter how long and hard we study the physical earth, we will never be able to answer the 'how' that he did such things. Because the 'how' is merely that He commanded the things that He created to do his bidding.

He commanded the waters to part and they parted. He commanded the sun to stand still in the sky and it stood still. He commanded the sun to go backwards in the sky and it went backwards. He commanded the rays of light of the sun to not fall on the earth in Egypt and they didn't.

Now many, even among those in fellowship with believers, don't have this understanding of the true power and authority of God and so they throw their lot in with the ideas and understandings of the unbelievers. It is what it is.

You, of course, are free to believe as you have convinced yourself is the truth. However, I would encourage you to stick with what you seem to have already convinced yourself is the truth and now just settle back and set your goal to follow the two commands that your Lord has set before you. Love God with all your heart, mind and strength. Once having established that relationship, love others as yourself. Know in your heart that one day God is going to call each one of His servants to account for how they handled his Master's business while He was away. Strive for the day when those who have been faithful in believing all that God has told us; practicing all that God has asked of us, will hear, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

God bless you,
I Christ, ted

 

[Tree of Life]

Obviously taking the 7 day creation to be literal 24 hour periods has its problems. For example no creation took place on the first day. Heaven and Earth being created on the 2nd day on. Scripture says that the moon and stars are given for times and seasons.

So linear time didn't begin until the second day, and cyclical time didn't begin till the fourth day.

It appears that light is created on the first day.

 

[Tree of Life]

When Jesus referred to the beginning and Adam, you think He was reciting Poetry?

Not at all. Adam occurs in both the poem of Genesis 1 and the historical narrative of Genesis 2.

 

[miamited]

Hi paul,

You wrote:

But the problem with saying you can't trust science is actually saying you can't trust God. Because science merely brings out what the stars, the rocks, and the genomes are telling us, and they were made directly by God.

I don't believe that to be a true statement. Science is a manmade construct of study. Yes, it's goal, as we understand it, is to answer the many, many questions we have of the physical realm in which we live. However, the conclusions that we draw from our scientific endeavors are not necessarily the truth of things. Especially when we consider that all the works of God that are described in the Scriptures are all events and actions that all science tells us is impossible.

Can science show you with surety how Mary became pregnant? Can it tell you that because of this and that and such and such and so and so we see that it is perfectly possible for a woman to become pregnant without having male sperm introduced into her egg? Can science explain to us how a wall of water can stand up straight and tall without any aid to support its position? Can science tell us how a finger can appear in thin air and write upon a wall?

You believe that science can answer the questions of creation because it can show you evidence of how things work in the here and now naturally. That light can only travel at a given speed and therefore... . That our study of the cosmos gives us indication that today the universe is expanding. However, all of the facts and figures of science, because it deals with only natural occurrences happening by natural means, cannot explain the 'how' that God is able to do miraculous things.

How did God make an animal speak in an understood language? How did God make the sun to stand still in the sky? How did God bring about the death of every firstborn of all the people of Egypt in one night? How, when God questioned a man as to what he would accept as proof of Himself, make the shadow of the sun on a regular and normal flight of steps to go backwards ten steps? Science has no answer for any of these things, yet the Scriptures say that they happened.

So, we're left with a choice. Do we believe that all these accounts of miraculous things that can't possibly happen by any scientific explanation happened? Or, do we convince ourselves that there must be some other explanation by way of poetry or some form of story telling that means that the events described didn't actually happen, but were devices through which we are being taught some 'truth' of God?

My choice is that God is exactly who He claims of Himself to be. That He has actually, physically done all the things that His account tells us that He did. That while science, is a great way to study the here and now and how things happen when left to the devices of the natural processes of things, we cannot then take those natural processes of things that we see in the here and now and extrapolate them over to explain something that seems perfectly obvious to me, to be a miraculous work of the God who loves me. The God who creates. The God who has declared in the very foundation of His law that He created all that there is in six days. I believe God, not man, when it comes to the things that God has told me.

This idea that the methodology of science is some 'gift' that God has given us to use to understand who He is and all that He has done, doesn't fly with me. The only thing that God has given us to understand who He is and all that He has done are the Scriptures. The creation does proclaim the glory of God, but gives no evidence as to who God is. After all, the Egyptians had the heavens to look at every day and yet they never had a clue that the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob even existed until Moses visited Pharaoh. Pharaoh even questions Moses, "Who is this God that I should obey Him?"

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Bible declares that all God created was completely good. That means it was without the violence associated with the laws of tooth and claw and required death.

For man to have evolved in the way science tells us he did would require millions (if not billions) of years of pain, death and decay.

I don't believe the scriptures leave that option open for us to believe in.

For instance Christ conquered death which is clearly presented as an evil.

Unless God has written the entire Bible in a way which is meant to deceive - it seems to me - we must take it as literal wherever we can. That means no evolution IMO.

If the scriptures are so deceptive as to present things as they do when something completely different is really the case - we have no logical basis for believing what they say concerning salvation.

Then - as I see it - of all religions Christianity is the most purposefully false and deceptive.

"Let your yes be yes and your no be no - all else is of the devil."

How can God hate lying tongues and rail against duplicity when He has shown Himself to be the author of such.

Frankly - it seems to me - we have a simple choice before us which may have more dire consequences than we imagine.

It's a question we've seen before.

"Hath God really said". That is the question before us.

Of course there are those who apparently believe that the idea of a literal fall of mankind is an allegory or poetry.

In which case - why not conclude that the fanciful tale of a second Adam who conquered sin by believing God all of His life without wavering is just an allegory or poetry?

 

[buzuxi02]

It appears that light is created on the first day.

Before the creation of time itself.

 

[Tree of Life]

Before the creation of time itself.

"Time" as an abstract concept is not explicitly mentioned in Genesis 1. So I don't know what you mean.

 

[buzuxi02]

In the "Beginning" God created Heaven and Earth. 'The beginning' didn't start till the second day.

 

[Tree of Life]

In the "Beginning" God created Heaven and Earth. 'The beginning' didn't start till the second day.

How do you figure?

 

[Oseas]

If the scriptures are so deceptive as to present things as they do when something completely different is really the case - we have no logical basis for believing what they say concerning salvation.

We are living in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and LAST millennium, the Millennium of Christ, and the Millennium of Truth, and the Millennium of Judgment, and the Millennium of Vengeance, the seventh and LAST millennium or the seventh and LAST Day of the week of God, so everything that is of the Devil which he offered to JESUS (Mat.4:8to112), yea, all things of the world of Devil will be destroyed and will fall as in an implosion. All structures of the satanic's kingdoms of the world like political, religious, economic, military, social, cultural, will be annhilated. The peoples were warned: when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, … and they will not escape. Will be this powerful world of Devil run more ten years with all its powerful structures? Much much probably not, this is the reason I am emphasizing with another colour this phrase. Are the mankind ready? I see they are not. I repeat, We are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and LAST Day of the week of God, in the time of Apocalypse, the four riders showed in Revelation 6 are being released and they are moving themselves in the earth, One is of the Lord and three are of the Devil. The most important thing now is to identify who they are, the four horsemen of Apocalypse. I must say peremptorily that One of them is from the Lord, the rider of the white horse (Rev.19:11to21 and 16:13to21) and three are agents of the Devil, a satanic trinity. (Rev.16:13-14)

The Bible says: Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1John2:15-17)

Be ready, be prepared. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.