Sir Robert Anderson's Dates ???

Biblewriter

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If we agree that these events actually occurred during 70 A.D., how can we avoid connecting these events to Daniel 9:27's abomination of desolation?

What am I missing here?




Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


:confused:

Daniel 9:27 speaks of events that go beyond AD 70, as does Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
 
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Rev20

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Daniel 9:27 speaks of events that go beyond AD 70, as does Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Daniel 9:26-27 refer to the times of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, which times were determined separately from the 70 weeks determined in verse 24 for previous events. The originally decreed 70 weeks were completed 3 1/2 years (one-half week) after Christ was murdered, exactly as prophesied.

Maybe you will understand it better, Biblewriter, if you follow the translation that Christ and the Apostles frequently quoted:

"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations." -- Dan 9:26 LXX

It doesn't get much clearer than that; though the Masoretic text is fairly clear in its own right:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." -- Dan 9:26 KJV

: )
 
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BABerean2

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That is what I said.

Is the following verse past or future in your opinion?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.
 
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Danoh

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Is the following verse past or future in your opinion?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.

The first part of that passage refers to the balance of Israel's political fall in the first going into the second century.

The latter part refers to the end of said political fall and which is yet future and thus the answer to Daniel's original question.
 
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Biblewriter

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Daniel 9:26-27 refer to the times of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, which times were determined separately from the 70 weeks determined in verse 24 for previous events. The originally decreed 70 weeks were completed 3 1/2 years (one-half week) after Christ was murdered, exactly as prophesied.

Maybe you will understand it better, Biblewriter, if you follow the translation that Christ and the Apostles frequently quoted:
"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations." -- Dan 9:26 LXX
It doesn't get much clearer than that; though the Masoretic text is fairly clear in its own right:
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." -- Dan 9:26 KJV
: )

The translation of this verse from the septuagint posted online at:

Daniel


reads:

"And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation."
 
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Biblewriter

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Is the following verse past or future in your opinion?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.

All of this verse took place in the past, except the part I hignlighted above.

The word in Italicized is the present, and the part I underlined is future.

These troublesome little "untils" in scripture are one of those details that people of your persuasion try to gloss over, as if they were not really important. But God does not waste words. And everything He says is important. We need to pay attention to the details of everything He said.
 
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Rev20

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The translation of this verse from the septuagint posted online at:

Daniel

reads:

"And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation."

You are quoting verse 27 from Brenton's, Biblewriter. I quoted verse 26 from both Brenton's and the Masoretes.

Do you have a point about verse 27?

:)
 
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Biblewriter

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You are quoting verse 27 from Brenton's, Biblewriter. I quoted verse 26 from both Brenton's and the Masoretes.

Do you have a point about verse 27?

:)
My bad. about verse 27 the real question is verse 26. The word "with," (Greek "sun") in the Septuagint, which you highlighted, is wholly missing in the Hebrew. And it does not make any difference which Hebrew text you are using.

Verse 26 is about the tome between the 69th and 70th weeks, so it indeed speaks of both the crucifixion and AD70, but verse 27 is about the seventieth week, and is thus about a time after AD 70.
 
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Rev20

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"Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

All of this verse took place in the past, except the part I hignlighted above.

The word in Italicized is the present, and the part I underlined is future.

How do you know that is future, Biblewriter? Isaiah had this to say about being tread under foot:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." --Isa 28:14-18

That passage was referring to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, Biblewriter; and Christ was that precious cornerstone laid in Zion that was the chief cornerstone of the spiritual temple, which forever replaced the physical temple of the builders:

"This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner." --Acts 4:11

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." --1Pet 2:6

"And [the holy temple] is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" --Eph 2:20

Besides, Jesus was crystal clear that the prophecies from Luke 21 would be fulfilled within his own generation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." --Luke 21:32
.

These troublesome little "untils" in scripture are one of those details that people of your persuasion try to gloss over, as if they were not really important. But God does not waste words. And everything He says is important. We need to pay attention to the details of everything He said.

Perhaps you will show us in the scripture where the "times of the Gentiles" extended beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the selling of many former Jews into slavery. You are aware that the word "times" equals two years, in the scripture, aren't you? John (actually Christ) explained it perfectly in Revelation 12. It goes like this:

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." --Rev 12:6 KJV

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." --Rev 12:14 KJV

One thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days is equal to forty and two (42) months, or three and one-half years, or a time, times and a half a time. They are all equal.

Think about it this way: John said the holy city would be trodden under foot for forty two months:

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." --Rev 11:1-2

That was easy enough; but Christ had a caveat that, as you imply, cannot be ignored. So let's analyze:

Christ said that Jerusalem would be trodden under foot "UNTIL" the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled. Therefore, Christ was not referring to the entire 42 months that John wrote of; but rather the last two years, or 24 months of the 42 months, or there abouts.

Now, there was not a lot of evangelizing to the Jews during the Jewish/Roman war; but that does not mean the Gentiles were not being evangelized.

Therefore, my guess (and I do mean guess) for what transpired is, Christ had allowed the apostles those two years (or, "times") to take the message to the Gentiles, before their (the apostles) resurrection and the final destruction of Jerusalem.

We all know there was, and will never be, better evangelizing than provided directly by the apostles.

But, again, that is only a guess. The only things we really know are the time contexts; and Jesus was plainly speaking of some event during approximately the last two years of the 42 months that Jerusalem was trodden under foot.

:)
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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Is the following verse past or future in your opinion?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.

until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Wake up!

"Do you not see the words "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled?"

Daniel 9:27 cannot be fulfilled until the time of the gentiles end first. Daniel's 70th week is not about the gentiles. Wake up!
 
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BABerean2

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All of this verse took place in the past, except the part I hignlighted above.

The word in Italicized is the present, and the part I underlined is future.

These troublesome little "untils" in scripture are one of those details that people of your persuasion try to gloss over, as if they were not really important. But God does not waste words. And everything He says is important. We need to pay attention to the details of everything He said.

Is it your belief that the time of the gentiles will be fulfilled at the pretrib rapture of the Church?


or does it require the rebuilding of the temple?
 
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BABerean2

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Wake up!

"Do you not see the words "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled?"

Daniel 9:27 cannot be fulfilled until the time of the gentiles end first. Daniel's 70th week is not about the gentiles. Wake up!

Try to apply the same logic to yourself.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Did you fall asleep and dream up a gap of almost 2,000 years, not mentioned by the angel?

Adding a gap of unknown length to a time prophecy of given length is a perversion of God's Word.

You must be dreaming if you think otherwise.



.
 
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Danoh

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Is it your belief that the time of the gentiles will be fulfilled at the pretrib rapture of the Church?


or does it require the rebuilding of the temple?

Your questions often remind me of a call I once took while taking calls for an assembly after an outreach. The moment I said hello, the person on the other end right off asked if we believe tongues are for today.

As I found out over the course of many months handling those phones, these kinds of yea or nay questions often reveal someone has already made up their minds.

That is you - this is all about what Lacunza, and Darby, and whomever brainwashed others with - even if they had come to some of their same findings on their own way before ever having heard of any of their findings from anyone but some passages in a Book known as the Holy Bible.

Its all for naught - BAB2 has concluded, and that is all there is.

Why bother then? Your mind is made up.

I know you believe that is receiving the word of another with all readiness of mind, after all, you call yourself BAB2, so it must be true.

Like a friend of mine - he swears he is not Pentecostal - that he is a Christian, even though he asserts in the same breath that he attends the Pentecostal assembly he does because he agrees with about 95% of their doctrine.
 
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Danoh

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Try to apply the same logic to yourself.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Did you fall asleep and dream up a gap of almost 2,000 years, not mentioned by the angel?

Adding a gap of unknown length to a time prophecy of given length is a perversion of God's Word.

You must be dreaming if you think otherwise.



.

Oh grand "Be a Berean too," the temporary gap is related in many of the prophets - some of which are Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Luke...

And it is not the so called church age, nor the dispensation of the grace of God you misconstrue some assert.

That is "this mystery" inserted in said gap, during said gap; but it is not the gap.
 
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Jerico Miles

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Try to apply the same logic to yourself.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Did you fall asleep and dream up a gap of almost 2,000 years, not mentioned by the angel?

Adding a gap of unknown length to a time prophecy of given length is a perversion of God's Word.

You must be dreaming if you think otherwise.

Daniel 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Where does it say the last week has already been completed? Gabriel said only the first 7 and next 62 weeks have been fulfilled at the time of Christ's death.

Show us where does Gabriel mentioned a fulfillment of the final week.

The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years. Neither he nor Daniel mentioned a gap. Placing a gap of unknown length into a time prophecy of clearly stated length, has to be considered doing great violence to the text. Some have even stated it makes the angel out to be a liar.

The words of Christ himself clearly shows him being the one to confirm the New Covenant (Testament). This was His very purpose which we all seem to agree on.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The other thing you did wrong was trying to claim Christ to be the one who commits the abomination of desolation written in verse 27 by twisting scriptures with Mat 26:28.

Christ died in verse 26, Jerusalem and the temple were also destroyed in verse 26.

Verse 27 is future. Why would Gabriel addressed Christ with the word Messiah in verses 25 and 26 but not in verse 27? And the "he" in verse 27 is lower case.

Something definitely wrong with your thinking if you think Christ committed an abomination in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


NOW WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!
 
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BABerean2

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Oh grand "Be a Berean too," the temporary gap is related in many of the prophets - some of which are Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Luke...

And it is not the so called church age, nor the dispensation of the grace of God you misconstrue some assert.

That is "this mystery" inserted in said gap, during said gap; but it is not the gap.

I really appreciate you showing me that I am the problem.

I continue to misconstrue the text, and fail to be a Berean.

I am always easily led astray by the commentary of others.

You have seen many like me before who cannot really understand the scriptures.

This is all quite clear, because anyone who cannot see that Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is the correct doctrine must be blind to the truth of God's Word. It must be rightly divided, in order to see the mystery revealed only to our Apostle Paul.

Your have weighed me in the balance and found me lacking.

I can now see the handwriting on the wall.

It is only the humility of Christ that enables you to deal with those of less ability.




.
 
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Jerico Miles

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Daniel 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


One other thing. Verse 26 said "the people of the prince to come" will destroy the city and temple.

Who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD? Those people weren't Jews or His disciples. The prince mentioned in verse 26-27 is definitely not Christ.
 
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BABerean2

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Daniel 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Where does it say the last week has already been completed? Gabriel said only the first 7 and next 62 weeks have been fulfilled at the time of Christ's death.

Show us where does Gabriel mentioned a fulfillment of the final week.



The other thing you did wrong was trying to claim Christ to be the one who commits the abomination of desolation written in verse 27 by twisting scriptures with Mat 26:28.

Christ died in verse 26, Jerusalem and the temple were also destroyed in verse 26.

Verse 27 is future. Why would Gabriel addressed Christ with the word Messiah in verses 25 and 26 but not in verse 27? And the "he" in verse 27 is lower case.

Something definitely wrong with your thinking if you think Christ committed an abomination in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


NOW WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

You underlined the text that clearly states He is cut off "after" the 69th week.

If I am going on vacation "after" this week, it will be into the next week.

Remember that when this was written there were no verse numbers. There is more than one concept in Dan. 9:27. Christ confirmed the New Covenant as He states in Matthew 26:28. Then later it speaks of the abomination of desolation of 70 A.D. which was the last thing mentioned.
You are mixing them together.

There must be an antecedent for the "he" which is in the verse. The antichrist was not mentioned in Daniel 9. Therefore the "he" has to be either Christ, the Romans or Titus. Making Dan. 9:27 about the antichrist breaks the rules of interpretation.

You are acting as if I have some crazy ideas in interpreting the text in this way. However, this was the interpretation given by most before Darby brought Dispensationalism to America.

The 1599 Geneva Bible was used by the Pilgrims. It contains the interpretation I gave you.

You are taking a covenant confirmed by Christ and changing it to a treaty broken by the antichrist, who popped into the verse out of thin air. You are also placing a manmade gap into the text.

Then you tell me I am doing violence to the text.


.
 
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