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Sins Remedy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BrotherJJ, May 5, 2021.

  1. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

    United States
    Adam, mankind's patriarch sinned/transgressed against a soveriegn Creator's law.

    1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Rom 6:23 [A] the wages of sin is death

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    (MY NOTE: Adam's sin placed all his offspring/mankind under the death sentence)

    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Heavens required payment to purge/remove sin is blood:

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents]
    (MY NOTE: This verse is referring to OT Levitical law animal sacrifice atonement, innocent blood covering for sins of the guilty.)

    Heb 9:22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].
    (MY NOTE: This verse refers to Christ's NT once for all time sin atoning sacrifice that forever removes sins of the guilty)

    KJV Dictionary Definition: PROPITIATION.
    2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
    PROPITIABLE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
    (MY NOTE: Propitiation = an atoning sacrifice & Christ is that sacrifice for the sins of men).

    1 Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [that is, the atoning sacrifice, and the satisfying offering] for our sins [fulfilling God’s requirement for justice against sin and placating His wrath].
    Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4 - Amplified Bible
    (MY NOTE: Faith in Christ's sin atoning sacrifice frees us from God's wrath enacted via Deut 28:16-60)

    Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    (MY NOTE: Jesus said He was sent to fulfill heavens law.)

    At Calvary Jesus sin atoning LAW FULFILLING mission is completed. He Finished the work (Jn 19:28) He was sent to accomplish (Lk 19:10). Jesus sinless God blood (1 Tim 3:16), eternally (Heb 13:20) paid in full & FULFILLED heavens required sin payment/DEATH.

    The only way to remove the sin stain from a soul:
    Is faith placed in Jesus Law Fulfilling propitiatory atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins required payment, received & accepted)

    When Jesus died the Temple veil was torn in 1/2 (Matt 27:51) It's here the old covenant Levitical priesthood & punitive sin judgments imposed by Mosaic laws, are both rendered obsolete (Heb 8:13). Every believer in Christ's sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection is under grace not law.

    Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of legal demands [which were in force] against us and which were hostile to us. And this certificate He has set aside and completely removed by nailing it to the cross.
    Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2 - Amplified Bible
    (MY NOTE: By canceling/Removing ALL your sin debt owed/administered in Mosaic law ordinances. The Mosaic laws power to collect is now mute. No sin = No debt owed. Faith in Jesus death & resurrection paid ALL your sin debt owed.)

    The strength of the law & death is sin (1 Cor 15:56).

    Faith in Christ's once for all time (Heb 10:12) sin atoning sacrifice REMOVES all the believers sins, Past-Present-Future! Once your sins are removed, there in NO transgression of the law.

    Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    All praise, glory & honor belong to our Lord/God & Savior, Jesus the Christ! AMEN & Amen.
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    I have been over this hundreds of times in posts on CF and did not keep all of them and have taught this topic many of times to adult Bible classes. I have never found written support for my ideas so I am thinking about writing my own book, so please feel free to be very challenging of my ideas. I have always had a problem with all the atonement theories, but did not dig into them until I was in a deep discussion with four Muslims and could not help but agree with their logic reasoning and conclusions, but they were just pointing out the huge weaknesses of in all the popular theories of atonement.

    I have not solved the problem of where to begin the explanation, but it might be best to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement learned from actually individually personally going through the atonement process. Christians lack this experience and instead have developed preconceived ideas of atonement from poor theories.

    First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive.

    Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free. The “payment” would not be just any innocent life, but the life of the person who sinned.

    The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

    God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

    The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:

    Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

    Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

    We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

    Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

    The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

    Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

    Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

    Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

    Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

    We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.
    Try just this small part of it:

    There is this unbelievable huge “ransom payment” being made: Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the author of Hebrews all describe it as an actual ransom scenario and not just “like a ransom scenario”. And we can all agree on: the payment being Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, the Payer being God/Christ, the child being set free (sinners going to God), but have a problem with: “Who is the kidnapper”? If there is no kidnapper than the ransom scenario does not fit, so who is the kidnapper?

    Some people try to make God the receiver of the payment, which calls God the kidnapper of His own children which is crazy.

    Some people say satan is the kidnapper, but that would mean God is paying satan when God has the power to safely take anything from satan and it would be wrong for God to pay satan.

    Some say it is an intangible like death, evil, sin, or nothing, but you would not pay a huge payment to an intangible or nothing?

    There is one very likely kidnapper and that is the person holding a child back from entering the Kingdom to be with God. When we go to the nonbeliever, we are not trying to convince them of an idea, a book, a doctrine or theology, but to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which is described as the ransom payment). If the nonbeliever accepts the ransom payment (Jesus Christ) there is a child released to go to the Father, but if the nonbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is kept out of the Kingdom. Does this all sounds very much like a kidnapping scenario?

    Yes, Christ is the ransom payment for all, but the kidnapper can accept or reject the payment. If the kidnapper rejects this unbelievable huge payment, the payers of the ransom are going to be upset with that kidnapper.

    There is a lot more to say about this, but this is an introduction.

    Please think up some questions to ask me.
  3. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

    United States

    Christ's death & resurrection paid for all sin. His payment CAN include every person "ALL".

    However, Jesus sin payment isn't applicable until by it's accessed/seize by faith placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection.

    Christ's sin atoning work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE in Christ's sin atonement & resurrection!

    You cited fairness, you'll have to take that one up with the Lord.

    My view is what a sinless God in the flesh/Christ. Stood in my place, took my sin judgment/punishment owed. This goes far beyond the definition of the word fair.

    2ndly, you posted extensively on OT Israel & Mosaic Levitical law system. The OP explains Jesus once for all time sacrifice retired that system & no believer is under it.

    Here's the good news/gospel of Christ:

    1 Cor 15:
    1 Moreover, brethren, "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you", which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    (NOTE: Scripture declares the gospel which Paul preached to believers. (See 1 Cor 1:2)

    2 "By which also ye are saved", if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    (NOTE: The gospel of Salvation, Paul preached. (See next 2 verses)

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how "that Christ died for our sins" according to the scriptures;
    (NOTE: Christ died for our sins)

    4 And "that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day" according to the scriptures:
    (NOTE: Christ was buried & he rose again the third day. Also see Rom 10:9-10, Eph 2:8, Col 1:14)

    Recap, The gospel of SALVATION is:

    Christ died for your sins was buried & rose again the 3rd day.

    Jesus sin atoning payment & is accessed thru faith (Rom 5:1-2) You're free to accept or deny His offer. Jesus said, He stands at our souls door & knocks (Rev 3:20). He's knocking right now at yours. Best wishes, JJ
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Right, this would be called the Provisional Atonement. Christ provided an atonement PROVIDED that.... we have faith in order to access that atonement. The Lord provided a way of escape or alternate route for us to go by His sacrifice for us.
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    The wages of sin is still death, but Jesus reconciles us with God so that true righteousness, from Him, can now reign in us.

    “...just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    Rom 5:21

    And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

    Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
  6. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

    United States
    KJV Dictionary Definition: - REMISSION = (#5) Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
    SANCTIFIED - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

    KJV Dictionary Definition: - SALVATION = (#2). Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation. (#4) Remission of sins, or saving graces. Luke 19.
    SALVATION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

    KJV Dictionary Definition: - FORGIV'EN = Pardoned remitted.
    FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

    1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
    (MY NOTE: Believers you're sins are FORGIVEN for Christ's name's sake.)

    Eph 1:7 In Jesus Christ we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
    (NOTE: Written to believers see Eph 1:1. Believers HAVE <PRESENT TENSE> forgiveness of sins < PURAL)

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    (MY NOTE: Written to believers that you may KNOW that you HAVE [right now] ETERNAL LIFE)

    When people make salvation about their sins or the lack thereof. It places salvations focus on them.

    Salvations focus should be on Christ, how sinless, obedient & wonderful He is.

    Faith in Christ will lead to the believer to obedience, good works, good behavior, repentance etc. (Rom 1:6, 2:4, 6:14, 16:26)

    All praise, glory & honor belong to our Lord/God & Savior, Jesus the Christ!
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    United States
    After Jesus' resurrection, he explained what he meant when he said this. (Matt 5:17)
    Nothing to do with "the law" per se. Rather, the Law (capital L = Books of the Law) The prophecies about him.

    Luke 24:44 NIV
    He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    United States
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    What part of the payment does the “resurrection” play in the “payment”?

    The “payment” is described as an unbelievable huge “ransom payment” and not just any payment, so who is the kidnapper being offered this huge payment?

    We know that if a ransom payment is accepted by the kidnapper the parent’s child is set free to go to his/her parent, so was the payment accepted for each and every child and who did the accepting?

    This very much goes along with Ro. 3:25

    Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

    I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

    There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

    Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

    Lets look at the rest of the passage:

    From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

    Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive/accept that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

    I have the controlling salvation factor being the acceptance or rejection by the unbelieving sinner of the ransom payment ( Christ and Christ’s crucifixion). This is what Paul preached on Pentecost (Acts 2) and their acceptance of their being responsible for crucifying the Messiah resulted in their salvation, while rejection resulted in their loss.

    In a way you are saying the same thing: “Jesus sin payment isn't applicable until by it's accessed/seize by faith placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection”.

    The “sin payment” is the ransom payment (from scripture) and “it’s accessed/seize” is just accepting that payment and the “faith in Christ” is prior to salvation individual’s faith (the kidnapper’s faith/trust).

    We are both trying to explain the individuals role, but I am being more direct and addressing the specific role the individual plays in the kidnapping scenario and you make it more an unexplainable add on.

    Could we change the word “choose” with “accept”?

    No that is totally unfair. The parent needs to see to the just/fair Loving disciplining of His rebellious disobedient child and not just punish someone.

    The Lord is perfectly fair, but seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of even a willing innocent person is totally unfair. The Lord allowed Christ to go through all this to help us out.

    The first century Jews would have firsthand experience with the atonement process and thus could use that experience to understand the atonement process. We could use their experience.

    “Atonement” is not the whole Gospel message, but is very much a part of the message. The cross is not all of the atonement process, but is the atonement sacrifice.

    This is a lot more that can be said, so feel free to continue.
  10. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

    United States
    Although the post main focus is sin & it's remedy. Faith/belief & the resurrection are intergrated requirements needed to access salvation & sins payment/Christ's blood.

    Lots of people died on Roman crosses (2 the same day as Jesus) the resurrection is Father's Stamp/Proof Jesus was/is scriptures long promised Christ/Messiah/Savior.

    Rom 1:4 Declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, "by the resurrection from the dead"
    (MY NOTE: The resurrection is the declaration that Jesus was/is the long promised Christ/Messiah/Savior)

    1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died, "rose again", even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
    (MY NOTE: Belief/Faith in his blood sacrifice & resurrection

    1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again to a lively hope "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" from the dead,
    (MY NOTE: Faith in Jesus sin atoning blood/sacrifice & resurrection)

    Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, & was "raised again for our justification"
    (MY NOTE: Rom written to believers see Rom 1:7. Ve 25 Raised for every believers justification = A sovereign Creator God judicially declares the believer righteousness. Based solely on FAITH/belief in Christ sin atoning death & resurrection.

    KJV Dictionary Definition: JUSTIFICA'TION.
    (#4) In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.
    JUSTIFICATION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

    Strong's Concordance G1347 Justify Definition: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
    Strong's Greek: 1347. δικαίωσις (dikaiósis) -- the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

    I already (in an earlier reply yo you) spoke to the retired/obsolete OT Mosaic Levitical law system. A mere foreshadow of Christ/God's ultimate sin payment. I made no reference to kidnapping & won't now, because it isn't applicable to anything I posed.

    I close with the good news/gospel of Jesus the Christ:

    1 Corinthians 15:
    1 Moreover, brethren, "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you", which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    (NOTE: Scripture declares the gospel which Paul preached to believers. (See 1 Cor 1:2)

    2 "By which also ye are saved", if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    (NOTE: The gospel of Salvation, Paul preached. (See next 2 verses)

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how "that Christ died for our sins" according to the scriptures;
    (NOTE: Christ died for our sins)

    4 And "that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day" according to the scriptures:
    (NOTE: Christ was buried & he rose again the third day. Also see Rom 10:9-10, Eph 2:8, Col 1:14)

    Recap: "The gospel of Salvation is: Christ died for our sins was buried & rose again the third day. You are free to accept or deny. Best wishes, JJ
  11. Jay Sea

    Jay Sea ................ Ke ĉiuj vivu

    Perhaps I am too simplistic in my trust in Yeshua, but I find atonement theories only a distraction from the simple command to follow Yeshua as disciples. Disciples of the man Yeshua who live here among us and revealed G-d's Kingdom among us. Any atonement etc. is G-d's domain to administer as he sees fit. It is for us to live the Kingdom Now, to spread love, joy, forgiveness, compassion to all whom we meet friend or foe. To treat all as guests invited by G-d into our lives.
    In LOve
    Jay Sea
  12. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    If Christ had not risen from the grave, hope of our resurrection would be lost, so His rising from the grave is extremely important.

    Are you saying: “He went through this torture, humiliation and murder, so He could rise from the grave? (Some do reason this way.)

    We are talking about the solution to sin, so what as a wonderful Loving parent was your solution to a rebellious disobedient child, to help them quit repeating their disobedience?

    Dr. Dobson would say: “You discipline your children and never punish your children”.

    Think about this:

    There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

    Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

    Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

    Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

    Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

    What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

    Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

    How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

    Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

    God, my parent, is seeing to a Loving fair/just disciplining of me for my sins, which I can painfully go through with Jesus by empathetically being crucified with Christ. God Love allows God, to easily forgive me, but I need to also experience His Loving discipline for all the good discipline provides.

    As a cruel criminal and kidnapper, I was willing to accept God’s huge ransom payment of Christ and Him crucified, those sins were mine, which put Christ on the cross. The crowd yelling: “Crucify Him” were my substitutes (were taking my place at the crucifixion). I needed Christ to go to the cross for me to experience God’s disciplining.
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    Please read my post, because you are involved in the atonement process.
  14. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

    United States
    OP chronicled sin & it's atoning process. I'll expand a bit here on that.

    Adam was given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-28). Sinned & was not only removed from God's presents & from the garden (Gen 3:24) cherubim angels kept Adam from returning.

    Shortly after Adam's sin, God make's the 1st animal sacrifice Gen 3:21. Sin sacrifices continued throughout the OT: Cain & Abel Gen 4:4, Noah Gen 8:20, Abraham Gen 22:13

    Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
    (MY NOTE: Jehovahjireh means: "The Lord Will Provide". Provide what? A sin sacrifice & Christ is that provision. We access this provision/atonement thru faith. Rom 5:1-2)

    Covenant at Sinai
    And there were many many animal sacrifices offered for sin under the Covenant of Sinai. Until the ultimate "Once & For All" innocent sinless sacrifice is offered, the Eternal Son of God, Jesus the Christ!

    Immediately after Christ's (death) ultimate sin redemptive payment. The veil of the temple that separated sinful man from God's presents is torn in 1//2.

    BTW Cherubim were embroidered onto the veil (Ex 26:31). A symbolic reminder of the garden (Gen 3:24) where angels made sure, sinful man was kept from God's presents.

    Jesus ultimate sin atonement bought back, Adams lost dominion. The Father has given Christ ALL dominion (Jn 3:35, Eph 1:22) Believers can now enter into God's presents thru Christ (Heb 4:16, 10:20).

    Amplified Bible
    Rom 5:
    Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

    2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].
    Romans 5 AMP - Results of Justification - Therefore, - Bible Gateway

    (MY NOTE: We ACCESS God's grace/Christ through FAITH in Jesus sin payment & resurrection.) Thank you Lord Jesus. Amen
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    Does God as our parent have a hard time forgiving His children sins 100%?

    Does God need help to forgive our sins?

    Does God have a problem with forgiving or do we have a problem accepting God’s Love/charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

    If God forgives our sins 100% what is there to pay for?

    True forgiveness requires no payment and if there is a payment then the forgiveness is not pure charity.

    If Christ is making a 100% payment for us, then we owe Christ 100%, so who paid Christ for His forgiveness of us, and If Christ does not have to be paid that would make His Love greater then God?
  16. Psalm 27

    Psalm 27 Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
    Christian Seeker
    Acts 3:26 “...God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

    Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Praise be to The Lord for His indescribable gift :)