Sins after Baptism

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

Giver said:
Steve I would like to share something with you. Mortal sin is death is that not right?

In the Early Church people knew that if one knew God and deliberately sinned, there would be no repentance. (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira imprinted that truth into them.

John knew this and that is why he said: (1 John 3:5-6) Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.

People dont realize that once one comes to know God he or she will not sin. A person who knows God has told God, by, his or her actions, living the whole Word of God as guided by the Holy Spirit. When a person who knows God, and is a temple of God then that person if they deliberately sin are committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and that sin is unforgivable.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

My NIV translation says, "No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." (1 John 3:6) Which Bible translation are you using?

I question your interpretation of some of these verses you are quoting, especially 1 John 1:9:

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

To sin deliberately is a grievous thing, but the Church teaches that the repentant sinner can be forgiven.

I believe that the Hebrew verses mean to point out that, if you turn away from Christ, there is no other path to redemption than in Him.

I recommend that you get a good Bible Commentary like "Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible." And some Bibles that have accompanying commentary in them.

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
"To me, the verses seem to suggest that no one--aka, Satan--could snatch anyone belonging to Jesus away from him. But, since I believe we have free will, the verses do not necessarily say that we of ourselves could not conceivably sin so obstinately that we may lose friendship with God.

I say "conceivably" because I believe committing what we Catholics call mortal sin is in reality very difficult to do, because at some point it involves a deliberate rejection of God.

Even then, we believe that mortal sins can be forgiven. The only unforgiveable sin is ultimate and obstinate refusal to repent. Because, how can we be forgiven if we do not repent?"

You present the possibility of mortal sin (or obstinate sin) becoming so serious that, if left unrepented, it will lose the "friendship of God" whatever that might mean. For many Catholics it means eternal damnation in hell.

If one is being held in the hands of God and of Christ, such a possibility is absurd - at least if Christ actually meant what He said.

I also find your statement that "mortal sin is in reality very difficult to do" to be somewhat peculiar. The list of mortal sins is quite lengthy and I find several, such as voting for the wrong political candidate, to be, in reality, quite easy to do. In fact, I know of several sincere Catholics who frequently attend confession because they have committed such mortal sins. I have one friend who is in quite a state now because he is convinced that it is a mortal sin not to vote, but he cannot, in good conscience, vote for either candidate of the two major political parties.

Whether someone--out of their own free will--can turn away from Christ and, remain obstinately unrepentant unto death is, I suppose, a theological question, and I have been on both sides of it.

I do believe that it is harder than other Catholics may think to commit a mortal sin, because mortal sin must involve a contempt for God and a rejection of Him. It is possible to commit a grievous sin without it being mortal. The early Church had a very short list of mortal sins compared with today. But I'm not giving anyone a license to sin. If we love Him, we will not want to offend Him in any way.

In this election, our votes will tacitly commiserate some evil regardless of who we vote for. In this case, we can only choose the candidate we believe will cause the least harm.

New_Wineskin · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Whether someone--out of their own free will--can turn away from Christ and, remain obstinately unrepentant unto death is, I suppose, a theological question, and I have been on both sides of it.

I do believe that it is harder than other Catholics may think to commit a mortal sin, because mortal sin must involve a contempt for God and a rejection of Him. It is possible to commit a grievous sin without it being mortal. The early Church had a very short list of mortal sins compared with today. But I'm not giving anyone a license to sin. If we love Him, we will not want to offend Him in any way.

In this election, our votes will tacitly commiserate some evil regardless of who we vote for. In this case, we can only choose the candidate we believe will cause the least harm.

That is interesting given that it is a mortal sin to abstain from a Sunday meeting . One can go to mass twice a day , everyday , for 80 years save one Sunday spend it with just themselves and the Lord . Yet , if they do not change their mind and consider it a sin and decide to confess it as such , they will go to Hell . That is very easy and does not show contempt for the Lord .

Giver · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
My NIV translation says, "No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." (1 John 3:6) Which Bible translation are you using?

I question your interpretation of some of these verses you are quoting, especially 1 John 1:9:

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

To sin deliberately is a grievous thing, but the Church teaches that the repentant sinner can be forgiven.

I believe that the Hebrew verses mean to point out that, if you turn away from Christ, there is no other path to redemption than in Him.

I recommend that you get a good Bible Commentary like "Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible." And some Bibles that have accompanying commentary in them.

Steve, how can you read the following verse and not see that it says if one has been given knowledge of the truth, and deliberately commit any sins, no longer any sacrifice for them?

Also can you explain what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts?

You asked what bible I use. The Jerusalem bible is my favorite, but the New Jerusalem bible is OK. The New American bible is what I listen to, and quote now and then. It is also easy for me to quote from the New International version, and the King James.

As for commentary of the bible I personally have Jesus/Holy Spirit.

You need to read what John says in the following verse, where he says one begotten by God does not sin. Have you ever asked yourself if you have been begotten by God?

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira imprinted that truth into them.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

(1 John 3-10) Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

I have thought about that scripture alot. Im still thinking about it.

Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.”

MoreCoffee · Oct 21, 2012

weariedsoul said:
I have thought about that scripture alot. Im still thinking about it.

Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

Have you come to a conclusion yet? Do you understand what the passage is about? I think that Hebrews 10:29 helps with understanding what kind of sin the author has in mind: "Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?"

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Have you come to a conclusion yet? Do you understand what the passage is about? I think that Hebrews 10:29 helps with understanding what kind of sin the author has in mind: "Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?"

No i haven't, i considered that the sin the author refers to is rejecting Jesus as Lord and savior. But that's not clear to me, im still wondering, but it puts Godly fear into me. Many say that is wrong but to me it feels right.

MoreCoffee · Oct 21, 2012

weariedsoul said:
No i haven't, i considered that the sin the author refers to is rejecting Jesus as Lord and savior. But that's not clear to me, im still wondering, but it puts Godly fear into me. Many say that is wrong but to me it feels right.

I think that, perhaps, the author of Hebrews has apostasy in mind.

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
I think that, perhaps, the author of Hebrews has apostasy in mind.

What is apostasy? Is it turning ones back on God, or is it found in disobedience, or believing in a false gospel/doctrine?

Giver · Oct 21, 2012

weariedsoul said:
No i haven't, i considered that the sin the author refers to is rejecting Jesus as Lord and savior. But that's not clear to me, im still wondering, but it puts Godly fear into me. Many say that is wrong but to me it feels right.

A spiritual person who still sins will truly have much to be concerned about. The Holy Spirit will be telling such a person that he or she are in real danger.

There is a time in one walk with God where a person is still not held accountable for his or her sins.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isnt that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?

But how long can one stay an infant in Christ?

Hebrews does not imply apostasy, but because man does not understand how it is one can come to the knowledge of the truth; he had to find a lie to cove up what he cant understand.

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

Giver said:
A spiritual person who still sins will truly have much to be concerned about. The Holy Spirit will be telling such a person that he or she are in real danger.

There is a time in one walk with God where a person is still not held accountable for his or her sins.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

But how long can one stay an infant in Christ?

I agree with this.

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

Giver said:
Steve, how can you read the following verse and not see that it says if one has been given knowledge of the truth, and deliberately commit any sins, no longer any sacrifice for them?

Also can you explain what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts?

You asked what bible I use. The Jerusalem bible is my favorite, but the New Jerusalem bible is OK. The New American bible is what I listen to, and quote now and then. It is also easy for me to quote from the New International version, and the King James.

As for commentary of the bible I personally have Jesus/Holy Spirit.

You need to read what John says in the following verse, where he says one begotten by God does not sin. Have you ever asked yourself if you have been begotten by God?

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira imprinted that truth into them.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

(1 John 3-10) Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.

Commentaries are very important. The verses are warnings in times of persecution, when Christians were refusing to meet for fear of persecution; others may have been tempted to save themselves by offering a sacrifice to the Roman gods. This was the sin of apostacy. But the Church teaches that even apostacy can be forgiven.

You're setting yourself up. We commit venial sins daily. We ask forgiveness and are forgiven. For Catholics, we also go to confession, especially in the case of a mortal sin. Jesus was asked how many times to forgive our brother. Seventy times seven. How much more forgiving is God?

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Commentaries are very important. The verses are warnings in times of persecution, when Christians were refusing to meet for fear of persecution; others may have been tempted to save themselves by offering a sacrifice to the Roman gods. This was the sin of apostacy. But the Church teaches that even apostacy can be forgiven.

You're setting yourself up. We commit venial sins daily. We ask forgiveness and are forgiven. For Catholics, we also go to confession, especially in the case of a mortal sin. Jesus was asked how many times to forgive our brother. Seventy times seven. How much more forgiving is God?

What are the mortal sins?

Giver · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Commentaries are very important. The verses are warnings in times of persecution, when Christians were refusing to meet for fear of persecution; others may have been tempted to save themselves by offering a sacrifice to the Roman gods. This was the sin of apostacy. But the Church teaches that even apostacy can be forgiven.

You're setting yourself up. We commit venial sins daily. We ask forgiveness and are forgiven. For Catholics, we also go to confession, especially in the case of a mortal sin. Jesus was asked how many times to forgive our brother. Seventy times seven. How much more forgiving is God?

The only part of your answer that is scriptural is that we are to forgive our brothers.

Let me ask you; did any or your brothers come down from Heaven and die on the cross for your sins?

If you will read Hebrews carefully you will see that it is for insulting the Spirit of Grace the makes a sin from one who knows God so bad, and not forgivable. It is insulting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is the unforgivable sin the Jesus told us about.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

weariedsoul said:
What are the mortal sins?

It sounds like you know what a mortal sin is. The Catechism would say that it is any deliberate sin that destroys charity. Again, I think that is more difficult than Aquinas might have thought. BTW, Are you a former Catholic?

weariedsoul · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
It sounds like you know what a mortal sin is. The Catechism would say that it is any deliberate sin that destroys charity. Again, I think that is more difficult than Aquinas might have thought. BTW, Are you a former Catholic?

Actually i don't know thats why i was asking. No i was never Catholic. The only mortal sin i can think of that would be apart from all sin that leads to death would be the one unforgivable sin. But i really don't know. To me sin is sin and i dont wish be enslaved to any of it.

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

Giver said:
The only part of your answer that is scriptural is that we are to forgive our brothers.

Let me ask you; did any or your brothers come down from Heaven and die on the cross for your sins?

If you will read Hebrews carefully you will see that it is for insulting the Spirit of Grace the makes a sin from one who knows God so bad, and not forgivable. It is insulting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is the unforgivable sin the Jesus told us about.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Three of my commenteries--including Matthew Henry's--affirm that this section refers to the sin of apostacy. But, since even apostacy can be forgiven after sincere repentance, Matthew Henry names it "obstinate apostacy"--cf, the "sin unto death."

The only unforgiveable sin is the one that the sinner is not repentant of. Keep that in mind.

steve_bakr · Oct 21, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Actually i don't know thats why i was asking. No i was never Catholic. The only mortal sin i can think of that would be apart from all sin that leads to death would be the one unforgivable sin. But i really don't know. To me sin is sin and i dont wish be enslaved to any of it.

A mortal sin would be something like murder, adultery, theft, and the like. In Catholicism, these require repentance and Confession. But there is no sin that can't be forgiven, if repented.

bbbbbbb · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Whether someone--out of their own free will--can turn away from Christ and, remain obstinately unrepentant unto death is, I suppose, a theological question, and I have been on both sides of it.

I do believe that it is harder than other Catholics may think to commit a mortal sin, because mortal sin must involve a contempt for God and a rejection of Him. It is possible to commit a grievous sin without it being mortal. The early Church had a very short list of mortal sins compared with today. But I'm not giving anyone a license to sin. If we love Him, we will not want to offend Him in any way.

In this election, our votes will tacitly commiserate some evil regardless of who we vote for. In this case, we can only choose the candidate we believe will cause the least harm.

I find your understanding of mortal sin much more acceptable than the current Catholic take on it. Do you find yourself in disagreement with the Church in this regard?

I agree with your assessment of the choices being offered in this election. I think that many sincere Christians may abstain from voting because it is virtually impossible to determine which candidate would actually do the least harm. If voting for a candidate who supports actions that are sinful (abortion or outright heresy) do you think that one is thereby entering into their sin by supporting them? Personally, I do not think so.

Giver · Oct 21, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Three of my commenteries--including Matthew Henry's--affirm that this section refers to the sin of apostacy. But, since even apostacy can be forgiven after sincere repentance, Matthew Henry names it "obstinate apostacy"--cf, the "sin unto death."

The only unforgiveable sin is the one that the sinner is not repentant of. Keep that in mind.

(Mark 3:29) But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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