Sins after Baptism

Giver · Oct 18, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Paul was using the present tense. I appreciate that Christian perfection is to be without sin. Dear God, would that I never sin again!

But it also says, "He who says he is without sin lies." And elsewhere, "If you sin, confess and you will be forgiven." Thank you for the verses you posted. I appreciate your participation in this thread.

BTW, Those verses must mean that it is possible to live without sin. Perhaps some of our Catholic saints are proof of your position.

I feel so sorry for people who have been taught by their church that all people will continue to sin.

Jesus came to defeat Satan/Sin.

(1 John 3:5-6) Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.

John did say that one who says he or she has no sin is a liar. But you truly have read that verse wrong. Read the following.

You need to see John was saying: If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar. Cant you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Giver · Oct 18, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Paul was using the present tense. I appreciate that Christian perfection is to be without sin. Dear God, would that I never sin again!

But it also says, "He who says he is without sin lies." And elsewhere, "If you sin, confess and you will be forgiven." Thank you for the verses you posted. I appreciate your participation in this thread.

BTW, Those verses must mean that it is possible to live without sin. Perhaps some of our Catholic saints are proof of your position.

The most important thing a person needs to understand is that a Christian does not sin.

A Christian is dead to sin, and if one sins he or she has never seen God nor knows God.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Satan has fooled man into believing he can sin, and be forgiven over and over again. Satan seems to have done a great job.

I am called evil because of pointing out that a Christian does not sin.

I quote a Christian Saint that says one who knows God will not sin, but even that is discarded, because Satan has convinced people sin is something man will always do.

steve_bakr · Oct 18, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
Thank you for your reply, although my question was not directly addressed to you.

I think you are entering into precarious territory here, not unlike the theoretical possibility that Jesus, being God, was capable of sinning because God can do all things.

If the Father and the Son clearly hold the believer in their hands and none can snatch them from their hands, then I think that would also include the one being held. Otherwise, someone (the individual being held) could snatch him from God's hands.

The apparent problem with OSAS is the contention that everyone who says they are saved are actually saved. Jesus Himself made it crystal clear that not all who call Him Lord, Lord or who even do mighty miracles, will be saved. Simply thinking one is saved does not necessarily mean that God has saved him. John 1:13 expressly states that only those who are born of God (not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh) will be saved.

Thanks for your post. But I don't know why the territory is precarious. I thought my post reflected standard Catholic theology.

steve_bakr · Oct 18, 2012

New_Wineskin said:
I have already dealt with that . My answer will not make sense to you because your views on sin and baptim are vastly different than mine .

However ... Water baptism is nothing and so it's position regarding sin ( before , after , during ) is nothing . Once coming back to a relationship with the Lord - rebirth - the Lord will indicate what is sin and what is not sin in the relationship . How the person continues in that relationship is between the two of them . The only "serious" sin would be *if* the person decides to end the relationship after rebirth ( if that is possible , of course ) .

That is my view .

Thanks for explaining your position!

steve_bakr · Oct 18, 2012

Giver said:
The most important thing a person needs to understand is that a Christian does not sin.

A Christian is dead to sin, and if one sins he or she has never seen God nor knows God.

(1 John 3:5-6) "Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him."

Satan has fooled man into believing he can sin, and be forgiven over and over again. Satan seems to have done a great job.

I am called evil because of pointing out that a Christian does not sin.

I quote a Christian Saint that says one who knows God will not sin, but even that is discarded, because Satan has convinced people sin is something man will always do.

Thanks for explaining your view and providing the Bible verses. Naturally, I am representing the views of my Church, as I understand them. If you don't mind my asking, are you affiliated with a church? Which one?

Giver · Oct 18, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Thanks for explaining your view and providing the Bible verses. Naturally, I am representing the views of my Church, as I understand them. If you don't mind my asking, are you affiliated with a church? Which one?

I was raised in the Catholic Church, and truly believed all that the Church taught.

I went to mass, and communion every day form age twenty-five until into to my forties. I was a co instructor of adult information classes for many years.

Jesus called me into his ministry, and told me he would teach me about him when I was in my forties.

I found out from Jesus that the Christian Church is not teaching the Word of God. That includes the Catholic Church.

Asking Jesus how one could stay submitted to a Church, that he or she knew was not teaching his Word, was very important to me.

Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight the Church. Then Jesus relieved me of the Churches headship.

I am now worshiping in a home. If one wanted to know what Church I belonged to, it would be the Christian Church before Constantine the Great.

Satan has fooled so many, and people need to stop believing his lies.

steve_bakr · Oct 18, 2012

Giver said:
I was raised in the Catholic Church, and truly believed all that the Church taught.

I went to mass, and communion every day form age twenty-five until into to my forties. I was a co instructor of adult information classes for many years.

Jesus called me into his ministry, and told me he would teach me about him when I was in my forties.

I found out from Jesus that the Christian Church is not teaching the Word of God. That includes the Catholic Church.

Asking Jesus how one could stay submitted to a Church, that he or she knew was not teaching his Word, was very important to me.

Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight the Church. Then Jesus relieved me of the Churches headship.

I am now worshiping in a home. If one wanted to know what Church I belonged to, it would be the Christian Church before Constantine the Great.

Satan has fooled so many, and people need to stop believing his lies.

My concern is that, not having a Church that offers an objective basis of truth and Bible interpretation--going out on one's own, so to speak--can let to error.

My other concern is that--unless you are an actual Saint--you will stumble in one form or another. When that happens, you need a theology by which you can seek and find forgiveness--and, just as importantly, forgive yourself.

In one sense, that is what this thread is about or at least eventually leads to--forgiveness of sins after Baptism, after being saved, or whatever terminology might be employed here.

New_Wineskin · Oct 19, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Thanks for explaining your position!

okie dokie

Giver · Oct 19, 2012

steve_bakr said:
My concern is that, not having a Church that offers an objective basis of truth and Bible interpretation--going out on one's own, so to speak--can let to error.

My other concern is that--unless you are an actual Saint--you will stumble in one form or another. When that happens, you need a theology by which you can seek and find forgiveness--and, just as importantly, forgive yourself.

In one sense, that is what this thread is about or at least eventually leads to--forgiveness of sins after Baptism, after being saved, or whatever terminology might be employed here.

People will deny all the scriptures that tell him or her that one who knows God will not sin, and will no longer need to ask forgiveness for their sin.

Because people dont have enough faith or trust in our Lord to keep them safe from Satan/sin; they need to believe Jesus will just keep forgiving them. Instead of looking for rightness they keep looking for ways to keep sinning, and believing they will enter the kingdom of God anyway.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.

ViaCrucis · Oct 19, 2012

Willie T said:
If all your sins were taken upon Jesus at the cross....... (actually the Bible says INTO, He BECAME our sin, ............ and you wouldn't even be born for another 2,000 years... which part of the sins in your life did Jesus take care of back in 33 AD?

I suppose He anticipated you being "saved" at age... whatever?... and He covered you up to that point in time, and not a second longer? From then on, you have to chew up, and swallow, the host once a week to keep it all going?

What do you do with that sin you comitted at 11:37 on Tuesday night? (The good priest is fast asleep in bed at that time.)

We repent. Not as though repentance were a new thing to remove our sin, but rather in repentance we are confronted by the Law to recognize our sin as sin, and the Gospel--what God has done for us and given us--pronounces us forgiven. Which is why St. John can say if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins. Because all was finished at Calvary. Forgiveness is always found at the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, who defeated the power of sin once and for all.

-CryptoLutheran

steve_bakr · Oct 19, 2012

Giver said:
People will deny all the scriptures that tell him or her that one who knows God will not sin, and will no longer need to ask forgiveness for their sin.

Because people dont have enough faith or trust in our Lord to keep them safe from Satan/sin; they need to believe Jesus will just keep forgiving them. Instead of looking for rightness they keep looking for ways to keep sinning, and believing they will enter the kingdom of God anyway.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

The sins mentioned in your last quoted verse are mortal sins--although everyone in society is now involved in usury--and the Christian must not do them. But Catholic theology teaches that all sin can be forgiven after sincere repentance.

Once again, I recognize the Christian ideal for never sinning. I cannot say enough: Dear God, would that I never sin again.

But we all fall short of the glory of the Lord in this life--in some way or another. For that we have Jesus Christ to forgive us, so that we can return to the path toward Christian perfection.

I think that claiming to be without sin sets us up for two pitfalls. First, if we don't repent and confess our sins, how can we be forgiven? Second, if we have sin in our life that we don't acknowledge, it provides an excuse for us to continue in behaviors that God wants us to be free of.

As an example, what if I speak to someone out of anger? If I say I never sin, how will I be able to apologize to that person, and thereby reconcile with my brother and sister; and ask for and receive God's forgiveness and continued help?

Jesus taught us to pray, "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us." He must have given us this prayer because he knew that we would need to use it!

As you know, the Catholic general confession says, "I have sinned in what I have done and what I have failed to do." Who among us does this not apply to?

weariedsoul · Oct 19, 2012

Giver said:
People will deny all the scriptures that tell him or her that one who knows God will not sin, and will no longer need to ask forgiveness for their sin.Because people don’t have enough faith or trust in our Lord to keep them safe from Satan/sin; they need to believe Jesus will just keep forgiving them.

Hi Giver. Jesus told Peter to follow him and Peter did, Peter didnt know himself like the Lord did though, peter denied Him 3 times as the Lord told Him he would. Jesus had mercy and forgave Peter. Did peters faith lack? Yes it did. Im sure Peter was not comfortable in his sin of denying the Lord, BUt he did it none the less. We grow and learn, but we don't become sinless as soon as we become Christians. Its our desire yes. We should want to live in obedience to Him.

Have you never messed up even once since you became a Christian?

weariedsoul · Oct 19, 2012

This scripture has paul beseeching his listeners to walk worthy of the vocation, pauls words are not needed if Christians are already perfect. Nothing Paul writes here is for a perfect Christian. God gave apostles and teachers for the perfecting of the saints. That means there is a process in which we are perfected, which also means we are not perfect when we first become a Christian. Paul says to not grieve the Spirit by whom we are sealed. A perfect Christian cannot grieve God, only an imperfect one can.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Standing Up · Oct 19, 2012

steve_bakr said:
The purpose of the teaching--if you commit one sin you are guilty of them all--is to establish our universal need for redemption.

But you are mistaking the universal teaching for the specific application of sin. In the system you are describing, the needy man who took an apple would be put to death with the murderer.

It is a misapplication of the teaching. God is not a God of confusion. Your position makes a profound spiritual teaching into a charicature of justice.

I said there were all sorts of circumstances. Here's another. They were commanded not to reap the corners of their field. If they did, were they culpable of the needy one who steals?

The point is there's not the categories of sin, per EO, scripture, and me (RC disagrees). 3 against 1 ----

Giver · Oct 19, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Hi Giver. Jesus told Peter to follow him and Peter did, Peter didnt know himself like the Lord did though, peter denied Him 3 times as the Lord told Him he would. Jesus had mercy and forgave Peter. Did peters faith lack? Yes it did. Im sure Peter was not comfortable in his sin of denying the Lord, BUt he did it none the less. We grow and learn, but we don't become sinless as soon as we become Christians. Its our desire yes. We should want to live in obedience to Him.

Have you never messed up even once since you became a Christian?

Peter denied Jesus, and was sorry, and I am sure asked forgiveness, and was forgiven. That is true, but before Jesus gave man his Holy Spirit, man had no way to defeat Satan/sin. Jesus came to defeat sin, and until he ascended into heaven, man was at the mercy of Satan.

(1 John 3:5-6) Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.

Personally I know one does not become sinless as soon as one accepts Jesus as his or her personal savior.

What a person needs to do after accepting Jesus as their savior is receive the Holy Spirit. When one allows the Holy Spirit to teach, and give him or her the grace to live the whole Word of God then God makes a home in that person.

The temple of God will be protected by God from Satan/sin.

(John 14:21-23) Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas not Judas Iscariot said to him, Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.

weariedsoul · Oct 19, 2012

Giver said:
Peter denied Jesus, and was sorry, and I am sure asked forgiveness, and was forgiven. That is true, but before Jesus gave man his Holy Spirit, man had no way to defeat Satan/sin. Jesus came to defeat sin, and until he ascended into heaven, man was at the mercy of Satan.

(1 John 3:5-6) Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.

Personally I know one does not become sinless as soon as one accepts Jesus as his or her personal savior.

What a person needs to do after accepting Jesus as their savior is receive the Holy Spirit. When one allows the Holy Spirit to teach, and give him or her the grace to live the whole Word of God then God makes a home in that person.

The temple of God will be protected by God from Satan/sin.

(John 14:21-23) Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas not Judas Iscariot said to him, Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.

Interesting, i have thought about that a couple times. No man can say Jesus is lord without the Spirit of God so a person who accepts Christ must have His spirit even if they are flawed. Maybe its not that they must obtain the Spirit but instead they must let Him lead, and they must observe the teaching Christ gave us too,and that is part of allowing the Spirit to lead.

Giver · Oct 19, 2012

steve_bakr said:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

The sins mentioned in your last quoted verse are mortal sins--although everyone in society is now involved in usury--and the Christian must not do them. But Catholic theology teaches that all sin can be forgiven after sincere repentance.

Once again, I recognize the Christian ideal for never sinning. I cannot say enough: Dear God, would that I never sin again.

But we all fall short of the glory of the Lord in this life--in some way or another. For that we have Jesus Christ to forgive us, so that we can return to the path toward Christian perfection.

I think that claiming to be without sin sets us up for two pitfalls. First, if we don't repent and confess our sins, how can we be forgiven? Second, if we have sin in our life that we don't acknowledge, it provides an excuse for us to continue in behaviors that God wants us to be free of.

As an example, what if I speak to someone out of anger? If I say I never sin, how will I be able to apologize to that person, and thereby reconcile with my brother and sister; and ask for and receive God's forgiveness and continued help?

Jesus taught us to pray, "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us." He must have given us this prayer because he knew that we would need to use it!

As you know, the Catholic general confession says, "I have sinned in what I have done and what I have failed to do." Who among us does this not apply to?

For the first forty years of my life I tried everything that was taught to me by the Church to live so I would never sin. I went to Mass and Communion every day, but would always end up sinning. I used to pray to die before committing another sin, but still I sinned.

After receiving the Holy Spirit, and Jesus started personally teaching me, I was finally given the grace/protection to live with out sinning.

There is a personal relationship with Jesus that is so important in ones walk with God.

Jesus said he would call his own out by name, and they would follow no other. If Jesus has not called one out, then it behooves one to pray, and pray until Jesus comes to him or her personally.

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

steve_bakr · Oct 19, 2012

Standing Up said:
I said there were all sorts of circumstances. Here's another. They were commanded not to reap the corners of their field. If they did, were they culpable of the needy one who steals?

The point is there's not the categories of sin, per EO, scripture, and me (RC disagrees). 3 against 1 ----

I think we are all in agreement in terms of the univeral sense. If we talked about the application of specific sins, our terminology might be different, but I think we could reach an agreement.

steve_bakr · Oct 19, 2012

Giver said:
For the first forty years of my life I tried everything that was taught to me by the Church to live so I would never sin. I went to Mass and Communion every day, but would always end up sinning. I used to pray to die before committing another sin, but still I sinned.

After receiving the Holy Spirit, and Jesus started personally teaching me, I was finally given the grace/protection to live with out sinning.

There is a personal relationship with Jesus that is so important in ones walk with God.

Jesus said he would call his own out by name, and they would follow no other. If Jesus has not called one out, then it behooves one to pray, and pray until Jesus comes to him or her personally.

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

I'm glad you found a way to avoid sin, but I would suggest that you can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ within the Catholic Church.

It sounds like you struggled with a besetting sin. That happens.

As a Catholic, I believe in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I would consider returning to the Church at some point.

New_Wineskin · Oct 19, 2012

steve_bakr said:
I think we are all in agreement in terms of the univeral sense. If we talked about the application of specific sins, our terminology might be different, but I think we could reach an agreement.

Do you think so ? Do you think that it is possible or probable ?

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