when did I say that? BUt for good measure, saying a bad word is not a mortal sin.
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Sinner's Prayer?
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when did I say that? BUt for good measure, saying a bad word is not a mortal sin.
Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Moses was talking to THE JEWS, God's chosen people. Moses was telling THE JEWS that God has created a covenant with them and they have had the truth revealed to them so live as if they know the truth, rather than as people who don't even know God.
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Is this the entire basis for believing in "free will" or is there anything else?
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
Joshua 24:14 is an excellent illustration. I hate to run in on one of these conversations half way through...it makes it hard to catch up and contribute. Reformationist, are you a calvinist, or do you just believe in predestination? That would just help me to better understand what you mean when you are talking about predestination - also, any further explanation you could offer besides a mere title would be awesome.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
This is a specific command given to a covenant people. This was addressed to God's chosen people. The author of this book was not talking to all people, and certainly not fallen man.
I am a reformed Christian, not a reformed Calvinist. I think John Calvin has accurately interpreted the Bible, insofar as I have encountered his teachings. However, Calvin was a created being and, thus, capable of error. That is not to say that I find any of his teachings to be erroneous. I'm just sure I haven't read all his teachings so I couldn't speak authoritatively. And yes, I believe in predestination.
Well, I believe that man was created in perfect communion with God. I believe that man freely chose to rebel against God. I think that rebellion was part of God's Plan. I think the Fall was part of God's Plan. I think that God's providential actions of sending His Son to atone for the sins of His chosen people was foreordained. I think that man's nature, and thus his communion with God, was radically corrupted by the Fall. I think fallen man is depraved, does not seek God, does not desire to do God's Will, evil, unrighteous, motivated by unrighteousness, serves his flesh, God's enemy, and considers God an enemy. I think that Christ came and lived a perfect, sinless life and died as a propitiation for the sins of God's elect. I think His death was efficacious. I think that some people, I have no idea how many, will go to hell. I think that God does not love everyone. I think we are saved by the grace of God, through His gift of faith. I don't think we did, do, or will do anything ever to merit salvation. I think that our good works are a result of His good work. I think that God divinely preserves His elect and will fully raise them up on the last day. I do not think a person who is saved by God can lose their salvation, nor do I think a person who is saved by God would ever give it up.
Hope that helps.
God bless
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
On the issue of depravity - how do you think that this is passed along - is it done through the flesh? Are both male and female depraved? How is it passed along - through birth? By the male or the female or through both? Is this depravity total and complete? Are children born depraved? Are unborn children depraved?
Sorry for the bombardment of questions. I'm just very curious and not very knowledgeable on the standpoint that you are presenting, I think that we may have started to talk about it once before but never got into some of the details like this. I would really appreciate any help that you could offer.
Sorry for the bombardment of questions. I'm just very curious and not very knowledgeable on the standpoint that you are presenting, I think that we may have started to talk about it once before but never got into some of the details like this. I would really appreciate any help that you could offer.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
The fallenness of mankind is perpetuated through the seed of man.
Yes. There is no distinction because both male and female come from the seed of their father. Their mother's contribution is equally important it's just that when God foreordained the provision of a Savior it was necessary for Him to be born, not of the seed of man, but of woman so as not to inherit the fallen nature. So, since woman are the ones who give birth God removed the causal agent in the transference of a fallen nature, the seed of man. Thus, Christ was born of the seed of a woman. I guess God could have made original sin be passed by the seed of woman and made man be the bearers of babies, but I don't think I'll complain.
No, through conception.
From the seed of a man.
It is "total and complete" in the sense that there is not an area of fallen man's nature that was not affected by the Fall. I do not, however, mean to imply that man is as bad as he could possibly be. There are definite levels of depravity, look at Jeffrey Dahlmer. I'd say that not everyone is that depraved. The accurate way of understanding it is to understand that every single thought, inclination, and action of a fallen, unregenerate person is motivated by his fallen nature, and is thus, sinful.
Yes. If you want to see the epitome of sinfulness find a young child (1 year old). Every single thing they do is motivated by selfishness. I say this while having a 1 year old child. I think he's precious but, at this point, nothing he does is motivated by a desire to serve others.
If they are people, they are depraved. That doesn't mean that their depravity has not been provided for. I am just not aware that the spiritual disposition of the unborn is spoken of in the Bible. What I can say is that any whose sins are not atoned for will go to hell. For all I know all unborn children are provided for in Christ's sacrifice. I don't really know. I know that whatever God decreed is the righteous decision. If any go to hell, then they would never have been saved had they lived.
Nothing to be sorry about. In fact, I appreciate the godly way that you are asking these questions, even if you don't agree. That says volumes about your character and I appreciate it.
God bless,
Don
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Lotar
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Sorry, I thought it was you. I knew someone did, and I thought it was you for some reason.
How is making a choice adding to his His will. I am adding nothing, too make a descision, is not a work. Do I somehow deserve that gift, no, did I somehow earn it, no. I would not have made the right descision if it had not been for the Holy Spirit. But there was never any time at which I could not have rejected it. Just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean He is exerting his control over us.
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:1-2).
I really don't know where you get some of these ideas.The bible never says man as a whole is evil. It does say that we are predisposed towards evil. Haven't you ever met a non-christain who was moral. No man is perfect, but we do make the right choices from time to time. We have the free will to do good or evil.
BTW, I hope you mean Oh My Gosh, maybe you shouldn't use that abreviation, since it stands for taking the Lord's name in vain.
I would really like to hear a verse that makes that distinction
Man is not righteous, but he is capable of making righteous decitions. Haven't you ever seen people who weren't christians do the right thing?
Our relationship with Christ is often described as a marriage.
Yes, I do ask genuine questions, check out the Mary thread in the debate forum if you don't believe me. I like knowing why people believe things. Anyways, how can I argue with you if I don't know what you believe? Anyways, please post these passages.
If God is the 4 Os (omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniescent), and why is it His will to send people to hell? Our explaination, is that God does not remove our free-will, and therefore people send themselves (in short). What would your reason be?
Yes, all churches teach us about it, but most teach it as false doctrine, like Calvary Chapel.
So evangelism is purely for the benifit of those who practice it? Of course God works through this person, we don't win souls, God does, but would the same results happen, if we refused to do this? If a person refuses to hear, it doesn't matter what you say, we all believe this. But if God already chose who would be saved and who wouldn't, then wouldn't they be saved no matter what? So we spread God's word just because of our need to bring glory to ourselves? Then why does the bible tell us to?
I will answer you again. I am saved because of what Christ did for me. But at some point I have to except this gift from him. Making this descition does not change what Christ did for me, nor does it glorify me in any way. Jesus paid for my sins, whether I accept His gift or not, it says nothing of me.
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actually it is in a sense.
Roms 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
of cse there is no "the sinner's prayer" in the Bible. But they are based on scriptures and are a convenient way for sinners to get saved. of cse, the person leading the sinner in the prayer will always have to emphasise that the sinner must mean from his heart what he says and understnd what he is saying before God. it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style.
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Lotar
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"actually it is in a sense.
Roms 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
of cse there is no "the sinner's prayer" in the Bible. But they are based on scriptures and are a convenient way for sinners to get saved. of cse, the person leading the sinner in the prayer will always have to emphasise that the sinner must mean from his heart what he says and understnd what he is saying before God. it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style."
good point
Roms 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
of cse there is no "the sinner's prayer" in the Bible. But they are based on scriptures and are a convenient way for sinners to get saved. of cse, the person leading the sinner in the prayer will always have to emphasise that the sinner must mean from his heart what he says and understnd what he is saying before God. it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style."
good point
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
I didn't say you were adding to His Will. If anything your position purports that you add to, or complete, Christ's sacrifice.
See, now, this is the only way to make your argument work. To say that something isn't a work, that is. Let's do a quick test. You believe Christ died for all people, right? So, Christ dies and salvation is available, right? So, here's this thing, salvation, sitting out there because Christ died, right? Are you saved because Christ died? Look closely now. I didn't ask if you could be saved because Christ died. I'm asking, are you saved because He died? Was there anything else that had to happen for you to be saved? If so, then you added to His sacrifice and therefore His sacrifice was incomplete unless, of course, it is your belief that Christ's sacrifice was never intended to save the individual. So, I guess I should ask, "do you believe that the purpose of God sending His Son was so that you, specifically, would be saved or do you think that God wasn't so concerned with our specific salvation but rather just making it possible for us to be saved?"
Wait, didn't God give everyone the grace to make the choice? What is it about you that makes you so much more compliant to the work of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit didn't "make" you choose God right? Did the Holy Spirit give you more help than it gives someone that doesn't choose Christ?
Lotar, this is getting a bit monotonous. Either it was the goal of the Holy Spirit to bring you to faith and that's why you have faith or the Holy Spirit goal was just to try to bring you to faith and it would have been perfectly okay with Him if you didn't choose Christ. You can't have it both ways. Either the work of God is intended for a specific purpose, your salvation, and He will make sure that comes to fruition, or, He leaves the choice up to you and that means that it is not God's greatest desire that you be saved because there's a possibility that you won't be. You're talking about God like He's some impotent or uncaring Creator. Everything God does He does for a reason. If it is His Will that a person be saved then that means that He will bring that about. What is it that you think God does? Do you think He's just sitting up there in Heaven saying, "Oooohh, I sure hope Lotar makes the right decision?" Come on!! We're talking about God here. He's not like us. He doesn't say, "It's My greatest desire for this to come to pass, and I sure hope it does." No. If it is God's greatest desire for something to come to pass then He makes sure it does. End of story. If something does not come to pass then it wasn't God's greatest desire for it to come to pass. He's not like us. He is sovereign. We are impotent. Nothing comes to pass just because it's our will that it come to pass. The things that we try to bring about are subject to so many things that we don't even have a hand in. That's not how God's decisions work. If He makes a decision for something to come to pass, it does. That's just who He is. He doesn't answer to us. He brings about His decreed Will.
I don't know what it is that you think this verse supports but there is NOTHING in Romans that supports what you're saying. You would do much better to pick a different book. Romans is, without a doubt, the book that is used most often to support my position.
Lotar, please, research the position that you are so adamantly arguing against. The reformed view is NOT that fallen man is as bad as he can get. The reformed view is that fallen man does not make any decision based on their faith in God. Do you think that they do? Do you think that heathens do anything because of their faith in God? If not, it's sin. Sorry if you don't like to hear that but it's true.
Romans 14:23
for WHATEVER is not from faith IS SIN.
Nothing that an unsaved person does is because they have faith. Nothing. Therefore, it's sin.
What good do you think being "moral" is going to be? Will that non-Christian stand before God and say, "Hey, I was moral, even Lotar says I was?" If something is done for any reason other than a person's faith in God and His Law then it is sin. If a non-Christian saves my child from a burning building you can best bet that I'm going to be eternally thankful. But if the non-Christian did it for any reason other than faith in God, it was a sinful action. That is the Word of God.
As a saved person you have the ability to make decisions that are motivated by your faith in God (right choices) and decisions that are motivated by your flesh (wrong choices). An unsaved person has no faith in God. Therefore, everything they do is motivated by their flesh (wrong choices).
BTW, I hope you mean Oh My Gosh, maybe you shouldn't use that abreviation, since it stands for taking the Lord's name in vain.
Well, thanks for sharing that.
I would really like to hear a verse that makes that distinction
Well, it takes a bit of study and discernment which you might not be inclined to do but I'll give you verses that show a basic difference:
His decreed Will - This is God's eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His Will, whereby, for His own glory, He has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass (Westminster Shorter Catechism). This is the Will of God that is referred to in Eph. 1:11:
Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His Will
His perceptive Will - This is God's commands, His instruction given in Scripture, concerning how people should believe and behave. This is spoken of in the following:
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect Will of God.
Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the Will of the Lord is.
Colossians 1:9
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His Will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
1 Thessalonians 4:3-6
For this is the Will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
It's not the action that makes it righteous or unrighteous Lotar. That's what I've been trying to tell you. It's the motive. If their motive is sinful then their action is not righteous. Everything an unsaved person does is done with an unrighteous (anything other than faith in God) motive and is therefore sinful. It sounds like you don't take issue with what I'm saying but with whether or not the Bible is right about every motive of an unsaved person.
Sorry man but that's a pretty weak basis for making a point.
(cont.)
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
First off, God is NOT "omnibenevolent." There are many areas where God sovereignly brings something pass that is not motivated by goodwill for certain people. If God were "omnibenevolent" it would mean that everything He did to all people was motivated by goodwill for them. God sends some people to hell because their sins were not paid for by Christ. People send themselves to hell? People are not their own judge. God judges all people. Now people may merit hell based on them being God's enemy. But, no one sends themselves to hell. That is just said because everyone's afraid to believe that God could do something that they find as unjust. That's putting God in a tiny little box. God is the one who sends people to Heaven or to hell. Those to whom God grants eternal life in Heaven are given that because Christ's righteousness is credited to them. Nothing they did in their whole life would merit entrance into the Kingdom of God. The only thing that ever merits it, they didn't do. Those that God sends to hell are credited with their own works which, invariably, leaves them having to account for their own sinfulness. Therefore, they get eternal death in hell.
I must be typing to fast for you. All Christian churches teach A doctrine of predestination. Yes, even Calvary chapel. They have to have A doctrine on predestination. It's spoken of too clearly in the Bible to ignore it. I didn't say that Calvary chapel taught what I believe about predestination. But, be assured, they do have a doctrine on predestination. Go talk to your Pastor. He'll tell you. I also live in southern California. I have been to Calvary chapel churches. I have heard them preach on the subject. I think they are way off but they do have a doctrine on predestination.
No. That's not what I said at all.
Whose "we," all Christians? It's kind of a non issue. There always have been and always will be Christians who spread the Word of God. Even in the midsts of severe persecution the Gospel was spread. It will be that way until the Last Day. If you're asking do I think God could still bring about His Will without us going around talking about Him then I'd say, "Of course." God is not limited by what we do or don't do. He is God. Just keep reminding yourself of that.
I understand that but the reason that they "refuse to hear" is becuase they are spiritually dead. It's not just some outward show of being prideful and obstinate.
It's not an issue of "no matter what." "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17). This is the way God decided to bring it about. Could He have chosen other ways than His people going out and spreading His Word and being godly and sharing their faith? Yes, I'm sure, but He didn't. That's just the way He chose to do it.
Lotar, what are you talking about? I never said or implied this.
You see, you can't just say, "I am saved because of what Christ did for me." You clearly believe you have to add to that to make it be manifested. It's so sad. Christ is the reason you are saved. Period. End of story. You "accept" the gift and live as one of His disciples because He has brought you back to life and enabled you to do so.
Does that even make sense to you? You're telling me that Jesus paid for the sins of those that go to hell? What are they in hell for? Don't say that it's because they made the sinful choice to go to hell. Remember, Jesus paid for that sin too. People go to hell because Jesus didn't pay for their sins. People go to Heaven because Jesus did pay for their sins.
I'd truly love to hear why some people go to hell with their sins paid for.
God bless
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There's two potential problems with "the sinner's prayer", imo.
1. An individual may not be considered "saved" unless she says it.
2. An individual may not feel that "the sinner's prayer" and it's affiliated concepts need to be repeated along the way, because she feels as though all of her sins have been forgiven, and there is no need to "get saved again" or ask forgiveness for sins, since they have "already been forgiven."
1. An individual may not be considered "saved" unless she says it.
2. An individual may not feel that "the sinner's prayer" and it's affiliated concepts need to be repeated along the way, because she feels as though all of her sins have been forgiven, and there is no need to "get saved again" or ask forgiveness for sins, since they have "already been forgiven."
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i wasnt even thinking abt that but since you brought it up, yes, the rosary wld qualify. then again, why wld you say the rosary to get saved? ie not related concern
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So you think that the Holy Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style"?
Actually, one billion people would disagree with you.
BTW, the way that Christian Forum Rules are set up, you may want to change your phrase from the Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style", to "[it is my belief that the Rosary is] a magic formula said in vain repetition style."
Actually, one billion people would disagree with you.
BTW, the way that Christian Forum Rules are set up, you may want to change your phrase from the Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style", to "[it is my belief that the Rosary is] a magic formula said in vain repetition style."
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
There are about that many Muslims but I don't think that's a basis for determining the Truth of their beliefs. For that matter, if I'm not wrong, the majority of the world thinks that Christianity is untrue so the fact that there are "a billion" Catholics doesn't mean that they're right. Just for the record, I would not classify the rosary as a vain repitition because I believe that Catholics, for the most part, believe what they pray and they ernestly mean it. I am just informing you that the practice of saying "the Catholic church is the biggest or the oldest so they must be right" only convinces Catholics.
God bless
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