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Albion

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I understood what you said first time �� I was merely saying you did not understand the British dialect of English and misconstrue what I said, I never put words in anyone's mouth. :)
If you don't understand that to say "so...." and then follow it up with a thought that is made to appear to be the logical conclusion to be derived from what you read, what we are dealing with here is clearly not a problem of dialect or nationality.

Either God made us perfect or he made us flawed? Which?
Go back and read the posts that answered this for you. You were told that God made the first man sinless. That does not mean (as you implied it did) that he was incapable of sinning thereafter. In fact, several of us told you in no uncertain terms that it does not.
 
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We aren't here to discuss American vs British grammar and believe you me, you Americans have some weird grammar as well.

As for the rest, thanks for your responses, but the discussion between us is no longer productive so I will leave it at that.

If anyone else wants to chip in I'm interested in your responses :)
 
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Albion

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We aren't here to discuss American vs British grammar and believe you me, you Americans have some weird grammar as well.
Then why did you inject this idea into the discussion?

As for the rest, thanks for your responses, but the discussion between us is no longer productive so I will leave it at that.

Very good. I'm satisfied to know that 1) you've had your question answered, by me but also by several others, and 2) that there's no more pretending not to understand what it was.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So God didn't create us?

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

The focal point of my last response was on the nature of sin, not on whether or not God created us. Your question above does not follow....
 
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oi_antz

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Not sure how this relates to my question?
That is fair. I was getting at the point you were making of God judging us for doing wrong, which is not fair because He did not prevent us from being wrong, and while we have life there is enough comfort to afford us the ability to assume it is His fault. But in fact, any sin for which we can be blamed is a conscious decision to do what we know we should not do. I am saying that one day there is no more sustenance of life that we can be distracted by, and we will need to level with God if life is something we like. To some extent, some people do that before they die, and though I have not been there yet, I expect it is a common thing on one's death bed as the reality of mortality is realized.

Nonetheless, I see your question remains without answer, so I will see if I can help to show you my understanding.
Please explain the concept of being a sinner to me and why we are deemed evil and unworthy and in need of a saviour, I don't understand this concept.
Because we have a finite existence, which begins with zero knowledge and ends with some, it is a natural conclusion that we are going to do things that have undesirable consequences, because we did not have sufficient knowledge to know that we should have done differently. That is called mistake. It is always going to happen. A moth which flew into the bowl last night and got it's leg stuck on oil made the mistake of frantically struggling. It then got it's wings stuck and it had no chance of escape. If it had have known that I saw it and was attempting to rescue it, maybe it would have waited for my help, and it would have been able to survive with an oily leg. Likewise, it was a mistake for me to leave that bowl on the bench with oil in it, because it had undesirable consequences for the moth.

Now, if I was to identify that the mistake I made which had undesirable consequences also had desirable consequences (ie, it is useful for trapping moths), and deliberately set that bowl there knowing that it will harm the moth, then I have not made a mistake but I have sinned. So sin is the conscious decision to do something which we know has an undesirable effect, because we know it has a desirable effect, and we are willing to inflict that undesirable effect to achieve the desirable effect.

In the beginning, according to the story of Adam and Eve, they did not have knowledge of sin. They must have always chosen to never inflict undesirable effects, and if they did inflict an undesirable effect, it would have been a mistake. Perhaps they would see the result of that mistake and learn how to be more considerate in future. The story describes though that one day they did make a conscious decision to do something which they knew would have an undesirable effect, because they perceived that a desirable effect would be gained. They obtained on that day the knowledge of good and evil.

We are deemed evil because humans are by nature accustomed to think it is acceptable to some extent, to do something with an undesirable effect in order to get the desirable effect.

Because we as a species, over a very short time of being subjected to a given set of circumstances, can take that to an extent where we will not feed someone who is starving even though we have plenty for both of us (and even more heinous sins), then we are not worthy of living in a society where life never ends. As a consequence of this decision and His fear for what we might become in that case, God removed our access to everlasting life (Gen 3:22-24). We need a saviour who has conquered death, who holds power over death, to give us the sustenance of life. This is what Jesus says in Revelation: "to him who is victorious, I will give fruit from the tree of life which is in the paradise of God".

Christians who are satisfied by what they have been taught wrt salvation might feel comfortable in their knowledge that they have satisfied a criteria for salvation. It is important for us to always remember it is Jesus who provides the promise of salvation, and it is His satisfaction we should strive to obtain. Also, notice here what idea you get about what He is referring to, that we need to be "victorious" over.

What is the purpose of sin?
The one who is sinning can give you the answer to that question.
God could easily have made us sinless could he not?
It would have to be a much, much different world. How do you see this being possible or easy? I cannot imagine it.
 
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Joshua260

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Well Christians believe God made us so if we break His rules it is because He made us that way?

No. Sin does not originate from God. Sin originates from those who freely choose to do so.
 
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food4thought

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Either God made us perfect or he made us flawed? Which?

Do you consider the capacity to choose what we want to be a part of our perfection or a flaw?

I see the capacity to choose as a part of our perfection, because it enables us to have meaningful relationship with God. We can choose to love God in response to His love for me, or we can choose to reject Him and His love. Of course, these choices have consequences. All things considered, I would rather have the responsibility that comes with the ability to choose than be a doll that says "I love you" whenever God pulls my string.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Confuseddotcom. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus points out this important truth: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love and God wants our love, freely given and NO tags attached. Everything we say or do, everything we advice or stand for, MUST BE FROM LOVE AND COMPASSION. In Matthew7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy and Compassion with our neighbour:
all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we stop being selfish and unloving, and start being loving and caring, Love God with all our beings,
and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We might not like this much,
but God wants it from us: The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
For those of us who do not want to follow God`s Commandments, and prefer
going their own way, for those there is God`s Eternal Law: better known as:
" What man sows he will also reap." Blessings for good deeds, and pain and punishment, for Sins. God is Love, and this is God`s way of teaching sinners.
( Galatians 6: 7-10:) Be not deceived, God will not be mocked. I say this with love, Confuseddotcom. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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bling

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:cool:

What is the purpose of sin?

God could easily have made us sinless could he not?
If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when It can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are just something even an all powerful Creator cannot do, this big one for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it His Love. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction on the objective of Love.
 
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That is fair. I was getting at the point you were making of God judging us for doing wrong, which is not fair because He did not prevent us from being wrong, and while we have life there is enough comfort to afford us the ability to assume it is His fault. But in fact, any sin for which we can be blamed is a conscious decision to do what we know we should not do. I am saying that one day there is no more sustenance of life that we can be distracted by, and we will need to level with God if life is something we like. To some extent, some people do that before they die, and though I have not been there yet, I expect it is a common thing on one's death bed as the reality of mortality is realized.

Nonetheless, I see your question remains without answer, so I will see if I can help to show you my understanding.

Because we have a finite existence, which begins with zero knowledge and ends with some, it is a natural conclusion that we are going to do things that have undesirable consequences, because we did not have sufficient knowledge to know that we should have done differently. That is called mistake. It is always going to happen. A moth which flew into the bowl last night and got it's leg stuck on oil made the mistake of frantically struggling. It then got it's wings stuck and it had no chance of escape. If it had have known that I saw it and was attempting to rescue it, maybe it would have waited for my help, and it would have been able to survive with an oily leg. Likewise, it was a mistake for me to leave that bowl on the bench with oil in it, because it had undesirable consequences for the moth.

Now, if I was to identify that the mistake I made which had undesirable consequences also had desirable consequences (ie, it is useful for trapping moths), and deliberately set that bowl there knowing that it will harm the moth, then I have not made a mistake but I have sinned. So sin is the conscious decision to do something which we know has an undesirable effect, because we know it has a desirable effect, and we are willing to inflict that undesirable effect to achieve the desirable effect.

In the beginning, according to the story of Adam and Eve, they did not have knowledge of sin. They must have always chosen to never inflict undesirable effects, and if they did inflict an undesirable effect, it would have been a mistake. Perhaps they would see the result of that mistake and learn how to be more considerate in future. The story describes though that one day they did make a conscious decision to do something which they knew would have an undesirable effect, because they perceived that a desirable effect would be gained. They obtained on that day the knowledge of good and evil.

We are deemed evil because humans are by nature accustomed to think it is acceptable to some extent, to do something with an undesirable effect in order to get the desirable effect.

Because we as a species, over a very short time of being subjected to a given set of circumstances, can take that to an extent where we will not feed someone who is starving even though we have plenty for both of us (and even more heinous sins), then we are not worthy of living in a society where life never ends. As a consequence of this decision and His fear for what we might become in that case, God removed our access to everlasting life (Gen 3:22-24). We need a saviour who has conquered death, who holds power over death, to give us the sustenance of life. This is what Jesus says in Revelation: "to him who is victorious, I will give fruit from the tree of life which is in the paradise of God".

Christians who are satisfied by what they have been taught wrt salvation might feel comfortable in their knowledge that they have satisfied a criteria for salvation. It is important for us to always remember it is Jesus who provides the promise of salvation, and it is His satisfaction we should strive to obtain. Also, notice here what idea you get about what He is referring to, that we need to be "victorious" over.


The one who is sinning can give you the answer to that question.

It would have to be a much, much different world. How do you see this being possible or easy? I cannot imagine it.


Thanks for the response, I will reply when I have more time to give your response justice :)
 
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Dear Confuseddotcom. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus points out this important truth: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love and God wants our love, freely given and NO tags attached. Everything we say or do, everything we advice or stand for, MUST BE FROM LOVE AND COMPASSION. In Matthew7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy and Compassion with our neighbour:
all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we stop being selfish and unloving, and start being loving and caring, Love God with all our beings,
and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We might not like this much,
but God wants it from us: The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
For those of us who do not want to follow God`s Commandments, and prefer
going their own way, for those there is God`s Eternal Law: better known as:
" What man sows he will also reap." Blessings for good deeds, and pain and punishment, for Sins. God is Love, and this is God`s way of teaching sinners.
( Galatians 6: 7-10:) Be not deceived, God will not be mocked. I say this with love, Confuseddotcom. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Thanks for the Gospel message, but as a former Christian I am already aware of it. Your post does not answer the question I asked. I didn't ask for a transcript of the Gospel message!!!
 
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Joshua260

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And where do "those" come from if not initially God?

So what? I had kids also, but when my kids disobeyed me, that was their choice to do so, not mine. You have to remember that sin is not a thing; it is the willful choice to disobey God. So your implication that sin originated from God does not logically follow from the fact that his creation chose to sin.

Again, God did not create sin. Rather he created mankind with the gift of free will. Man made the fre-will choice to sin, so he was the author of sin, not God.
 
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So what? I had kids also, but when my kids disobeyed me, that was their choice to do so, not mine. You have to remember that sin is not a thing; it is the willful choice to disobey God. So your implication that sin originated from God does not logically follow from the fact that his creation chose to sin.

Again, God did not create sin. Rather he created mankind with the gift of free will. Man made the fre-will choice to sin, so he was the author of sin, not God.

But God made us with that freewill, therefore He made sin!
 
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TeknonTheou

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But God made us with that freewill, therefore He made sin!

No, the Scriptures say, "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you." (Psalm 5:4).

Sin came about because of man's disobedience of God in the garden. How could God create that which breaks His commandments? He cannot contradict Himself. With free will comes choice and part of choosing is either choosing right or choosing sin.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Please explain the concept of being a sinner to me and why we are deemed evil and unworthy and in need of a saviour, I don't understand this concept.

I haven't read the responses others have posted yet, so I'm answering based solely upon your question here.

The word "sin" comes from Old English synn, with cognates in other Germanic languages. Etymologically it seems to carry the concept of guilt, of having trespassed, or committed wrongdoing. It may have come directly into the Germanic languages from the Latin sons, "to be guilty". It's used to translated the Hebrew chata ("to miss", "to go wrong") which carries archery language of being off target, to miss the mark; a fundamental failure to do what one ought to do. The Greek harmatia likewise is translated as sin, again meaning "to err" or "to flaw", to mess up basically.

In the Christian concept usually known as "Original Sin" the basic idea is that each and every one of us enters into this world already bearing a sort of mark or stain of sin upon us. In St. Augustine's formulation--the one generally embraced by Western Christians--the idea is that when Adam and Eve committed the original sin itself--disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit--something fundamentally changed about their humanity, their very nature, it left a stain on their very humanity, and as such is passed on to all their descendents (you, me, everyone else).

Augustine was trying to address something very important:

Everybody sins. It doesn't matter who we're talking about, every person who has ever lived has messed up, has erred, has done wrong.. We have all missed the mark of God's righteousness, and this seems to be something within us, something so deep inside us that we're born with it. You don't have to believe the exact details of Augustine's theory in order to understand what he was trying to get at theologically.

Thus the idea of "original sin" is that from the moment we came into existence within our mother's womb, sin was already a problem for us.

Theologians have used a particular term to describe this innate human problem, they call it concupiscence. Concupiscence is inwardly-driven selfish desire, it means that our desires, the things we crave, fundamentally are selfish. That we want to satisfy ourselves, and that our thoughts and actions are fundamentally geared toward selfishness, that even in our best moments we are usually putting ourselves first. The Protestant Reformer Martin Luther defined sin in Latin as "homo incurvatus in se", literally, "man curved inward upon himself".

Another term often used is "depraved" or "depravity" especially in Reformed Protestant circles, or even Lutheran circles, in the idea of "Total Depravity". Total Depravity is a generally pretty misunderstood concept as it would seem to indicate that it says people are entirely rotten, disgusting little rats. That's not what it means. The word "depraved" comes from the Latin depravare--bent, crooked, distorted. Again it's this idea that we are bent or curved inward. The "total" here refers the fact that there's not a part of us that is somehow left untouched by this problem of sin.

It doesn't mean that we are entirely rotten, disgusting little vermin. That's not what it means at all; because in all of this the Christian faith maintains that the fundamental goodness of all creation. The act of being human is a fundamentally good thing. And that's kind of where we get to the point of what salvation is and what it means.

The idea of salvation in Christianity is that God is not going to abandon His creation to destruction in death or through sin. God is actively at work to rescue--to save--His creation. All of creation. God, first and foremost, loves us, all of us, He loves all of His creation. After all, in the beginning God says of all that He made, "it is exceedingly good".

So salvation is God rescuing, renewing, and restoring the world. This He has done, is doing, and will finish in Jesus Christ. In Jesus God has become man, He has united Himself with our humanity, which is why we call Jesus "the God-Man", that He is both God and human, at the same time. And thus in Jesus and through Jesus God has set about the task of saving the world.

We look to the death and resurrection of Jesus as the centerpiece of this activity, as the locus of this redemptive work. Because we believe that by Christ's death on the cross and by His resurrection from the dead Jesus has taken hold of sin, of death, and destroyed it. By rising from the dead Jesus has overcome death, personally, in His humanity. The reality of what God has done in and for Jesus is therefore, now, a gospel--good news--to each one of us, that what God has done for Jesus He will do for us. Therefore, for example, St. Paul will write in Romans ch. 6 that all who are baptized are united to Jesus in His death and resurrection, being united to Him in death and united to Him in His resurrection. Thus we share, by the gift of God through faith, in Christ's death and resurrection. Which is why we then say that there is forgiveness of sin, that there is eternal life, the promise of resurrection from the dead on the last day.

So Christ is Savior because He has saved, and is saving, the world. By His death and resurrection He has overcome death, sin, hell, and the devil and has united Himself with us, and we in Him share in the sort of life that He has. With the promise that what God has done for Jesus God will do for us. That when Jesus returns at the end of history the dead will be raised up to new, bodily, eternal life. Not some far away place "in the sky", but this world. Because God is redeeming all creation, there will be a "new heavens" and a "new earth", all things will be made new, there will be an apokatastasis panton (Greek: "restoration of all things").

So in short, we're sinners because we have a sin problem we stumble, fall, fail, and don't do what we're supposed to do. We also have a death problem, that is, we die. Salvation is God saving us--and all creation--from this mess and delivering us from the current state of how things are to the way they ought to be. That is how Jesus is the Savior, because He is the One saving us, God's agency through which and by which and in which He is making all things right.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Joshua260

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But God made us with that freewill, therefore He made sin!

First, again, sin is not a thing so it was not created or made. What color or size is sin? We're not Platonists!
Second, your conclusion does not follow from your premise.
Third, what Teknon Theou said, for I think he said it well.
 
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food4thought

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But God made us with that freewill, therefore He made sin!

No, God made us without sin, but with the ability to choose and thus the potential to sin. Yet the capacity to choose is necessary for the capacity to love, and thus it is a truly good thing.
 
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