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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
sinless children
- Thread starter UBERROGO
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Ewe
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But at what point does self-centredness become selfishness and sin? If you don't realise that there are conscious beings outside of yourself, it's impossible not to be self-centred, isn't it? Only when someone makes that decision to love themselves above others and God do they sin. Was Jesus omniscient from birth? If not (and personally I doubt it), He must have started out 'self-centred' too. The difference came when He had the opportunity consider how He valued others.
Some people think that we don't understand the fact that others have feelings independent of our own until the toddler stage. That's why babies start crying when they hear another cry: they associate that sound with feeling upset and don't understand that the 'upset' is outside of them. They think they themselves must be upset. The age at which this changes presumably varies. Some children on the autistic spectrum literally have to have it explained to them at school that others have thoughts and feelings of their own. I wonder if some mute autists ever realise that they're not alone.
These might be sinless, but they're also not righteous. As I said, I think babies are 'neutral', and for this same quality, animals never permanently atoned for the Israelites' sins.
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MarkEvan
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Children do indeed sin, but they do not have the mind capable of realising the truth in what they are doing, they do not understand the consequence or how it is bad to steal say, but because of that "innocence" God does not hold them accountable for their sin, because they do not know right from wrong. When they grow past a certain age they do become accountable because their mind has become more developed and is capable of understanding that what they do is wrong, this age was typically shown in the Barmitspha (no idea if I have spelt that right) that is "son of the law" its a sort of comming of age ceromony.
Mark
Mark
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Ewe
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That's the sort of thing that I don't define as sin. I define sin as wilful selfishness. It can also be defined as an action with a negative consequence, which we may or may not be held accountable for. This difference is probably where apparent disagreement is coming from in this thread, IMO.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
Again, even if you conclude that babies are sinless at birth, that doesn't make them righteous in God's eyes. To be righteous you have to know who God is first. The whole point of righteousness is to be able to worship and glorify God in thought and action. Right?
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MarkEvan
Senior Veteran
That's the sort of thing that I don't define as sin. I define sin as wilful selfishness. It can also be defined as an action with a negative consequence, which we may or may not be held accountable for. This difference is probably where apparent disagreement is coming from in this thread, IMO.
I agree with your definition of what we are accountable for ie willfull sin, however if the commandments say "do not steal" and a child steals then he has brocken that command, but because of his lack of understanding (his eyes not being opened to these things if you like) he is not held accountable by God. (IMO). He still has to be covered by the blood of Christ though.
Mark
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