Sinless? 2nd Level Of Sanctification?

[thegospel4all]

A coworker, who says her church is non-denominational, but they clearly follow some assembly, pentecostal and holiness teachings from what I've seen, ie; All the ladies have long hair, no make-up or jewelry to speak of, long dresses only.

In a conversation about end-times prophecy, she revealed some droctrinal points to me that are taught and preached in their church as follows:

1. There is a 2nd / higher level of sanctification. When you speak in tongues is the evidnece of the Holy Spirit, which is accompanied by complete "sinlessness."

2. We choose God, God doesn't choose us. We choose to accept or reject salvation.

3. You can lose your salvation. We are not eternally secure.

On just one point I asked why there are so many references about repentance in letters written to followers of Christ by Paul, James and others?

She wouldn't answer my questions when I quoted scripture to her, just got upset and in a very "church" / holier than thou tone said, "Why are you working so hard to defend sin?"

Thoughts?

 

[ServantJohn]

Before I go further in considering your questions, would you mind letting me know if you are a Calvinist and are you pentecostal?

 

[thegospel4all]

I'd prefer not to be labeled a Calvinist but I believe that scripture is clear that God chooses. I know it can be and has been an endless debate and I once heard it said that we may all get to heaven and find that only CalvinisticArmenianists were correct. I don't fully agree with that statement either.

I know this, that I was engulfed by irresistible love, forgiveness and grace and know that I was paid for, once and for all by our Lord's sacrifice and sealed by His resurrection from the dead. I know I could have no more turned from that love, forgiveness and grace in that moment, than I believe, that any sin, wilfull or otherwise, pre or post-sanctification, can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

I was raised in Assembly of God and Pentecostal churches as a child and into my early teens. The Lord Jesus revealed Himself to me, showed me the truth of His Word and drew me to Him in an Assembly of God church.

That said, as I studied scripture for myself, I began to question some doctrinal issues within that church, simply as a new believer who voraciously consumed God's Word and found that I could not hold to much of their teachings in light of scripture.

I welcome your insights.

 

[Michaelismyname]

God chooses we accept .. We choose God accepts ... lol

on this point - 3.the lord Jesus said " no one comes to me except the father calls him .
so i'm taking his word for it .

and yet many are called but few are chosen - does that mean that not all who are called are chosen ? Nope! it means, of those who are called, the ones who step up and answer the call - get chosen .

On the once saved always saved teaching 2... to many scriptures make it clear that a person, who having been set free, -then chooses to serve the sinful desires of the flesh will reap the fruit of that action which is death and that eternal .(romans- whole book )

so - i'll stick by Gods word on that one also .

On the no'1 . there may be a misunderstanding of what was actually meant so i'm not going to reply yet because I would need further clarification -its either a very weird doctrine or a total misunderstanding .. i-m going to hope its a misunderstanding lol.

God bless

 

[stormdancer0]

I think I understand the "Higher level" of sanctification.

When we accept Christ, become saved, we are sanctified spiritually. If we die at that point, God will see us as sanctified.

But there is another level, one at which we work with the help of the Holy Spirit. We continue to work on this until we die. It is sanctification of our attitudes, our thoughts, and our actions.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a huge help in this effort. The day after I received this gift, I began throwing out all my "inappropriate" books and other stuff without even realizing it until my husband pointed it out. Several bad habits disappeared overnight. I do not believe I am sinless - not until Christ comes and gets me - but it certainly brought me further than I ever realized I could go.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"A coworker, who says her church is non-denominational, but they clearly follow some assembly, pentecostal and holiness teachings from what I've seen, ie; All the ladies have long hair, no make-up or jewelry to speak of, long dresses only."

O.K. so we've obviously got a "Clothesline Holiness" bunch here.

"1. There is a 2nd / higher level of sanctification."

So you've got the Wesleyan Holiness paradigm - there's a Second act of grace that "Eradicates" the sinful nature.

There ARE, in fact Second acts of Grace - Pentecostals refer to 'em as "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" - Wesleyans call 'em "Entire Sanctification", and Baptists called 'em "Perfect Submission" (back when they bothered with such things). "Seconds acts of Grace" are ubiquitous in the historic church, and go by many names, but have the same effect - power in ministry, and a greater HUNGER for God.

Except, of course it DOESN'T "Eradicate the Sinful Nature" at all. And it doesn't cause a person to be "Sinless". If you follow your co-worker around for a while, though you'll find that she's NOT "Completely sinless" (except in her own mind) at all.

"When you speak in tongues is the evidnece of the Holy Spirit, which is accompanied by complete "sinlessness."

Ah - so you're dealing with probably a "Pentecostal Holiness" out of the Wesleyan tradition group. You might ask if they're "Trinitarian" or follow the "Oneness" lunatic fringe.

Well "Speaking in tongues IS normally part of the "Baptized in the Holy Spirit Package". If She's following a Wesleyan paradigm, you'll find that she's RE-DEFINED sin as being limited ONLY to the "transgression of a KNOWN COMMAND" - to make "being sinless" easier that it is for folks that have a realistic definition instead.

"2. We choose God, God doesn't choose us. We choose to accept or reject salvation."

God DRAWS us to Him, of course, and CONVICTS us of our sin. WE, however have the Final SAY about salvation. we can Surrender to Him, or we can walk away lost. THAT choice is up to us.

"3. You can lose your salvation. We are not eternally secure."

We're "Eternally secure" until we decide to walk away from it, and if we do that for long enough, our vital faith goes away, and without faith - what would our claim of salvation be based on??? on the OTHER hand, I wasn't really "Secure" in my Salvation until I trashed the "Eternal Security" doctrines, and concentrated on relationship with the Lord, instead of "Doctrines" about Him.

"She wouldn't answer my questions when I quoted scripture to her, just got upset and in a very "church" / holier than thou tone said, "Why are you working so hard to defend sin?"

Sure - Holiness paradigmatics don't take kindly to their "Precious beliefs" being questioned. She's a phony to some degree, and she KNOWS it. Folks don't get upset about their Settled Beliefs - but they'll get REALLY HOSTILE about the ones they're trying to prove to themselves.

 

[ServantJohn]

It sounds as though you are a Calvinist. Or at least a two point calvanist in that you believe in "irresistable grace" and "eternal security" as defined in Calvinism. I am more Wesleyan Arminian in soteriology.

I see you have some experience with the Assembly of God church. You may not be aware but the Assembly of God church has position papers and other official statements on much of what you are asking about, and they can be found here (Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site). Just like in most denominations, you have a wide range of theological leanings coming together and the specific church you go to and more precisely what pastor or teacher is there at the time will determine what you were taught on any given subject. Most tend to be Arminian or very similar, some are Calvinist and some are even Pelagian.

Concerning the three questions. I don't know much about the United Pentecostal Church International; so if her nondenominational church follows their teachings, I'm not really sure what she might be meaning. I am going to try to answer your questions in terms that most pentecostals (not United Pentecostal Church International) would agree upon.

Answers to questions:

1. Speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Holy Spirit.

I think it would be safe to say that most pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Second/Higher level of sanctification and complete sinlessness.

I'm not sure if I like the term second, higher level of sanctification though that may be generally accepted. I think I prefer simply being more empowered for purity and service. When it comes to complete sinlessness, R.C. Sproul (Calvinist) said that living a sinless life after salvation is "theoretically possible". If it isn't, then God does not always provide the way of escape that is promised in 1 Cor. 10:13.

2. We choose God, God doesn't choose us. We choose to accept or reject salvation.

Someone correct me if I phrase this incorrectly but it's generally accepted by most pentecostals and most Chrisitans that God chooses, God draws, and God does everything as well as gives us the choice of whether to accept salvation or reject it.

3. You can lose your salvation. We are not eternally secure.

Again, most pentecostals and most that consider themselves Christian do not believe in Calvins definition of eternally secure. Most pentecostals believe that Jesus will always be there. He will always provide a way of escape. He will always give us the strength to endure. He will never leave us nor forsake us. In these and His many other promises we find security in our salvation, but beleive that someone can choose to walk away from Jesus and the salvation He suffered to provide.

Further reading:
What is baptism in the Holy Spirit? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[thegospel4all]

I appreciate the thoughts you've all posted. This is my first time on a forum of any kind and yet, already received my first staff reprimand because someone said I "flamed" them by really just quoting scripture reference a queston on Catholicism? Live and learn I guess.

But, I re-read my post and could see why a Catholic person could be upset because of what scripture says. For me, I would never complain on someone unless they attacked me personally and used vulgarity or something. I sometimes lack tact where God's Word is concerned and can be a little too direct.

I do want to be more like The Lord Jesus, "full of grace and truth..."

I do very much appreciate your direct answers to direct questions. I do prefer responses that are strictly bibilically based and not what a particular denominational standard may be but often find the latter to be more prevalent as folks respond.

I find I keep coming to this forum. It may be because of some particularly troubling things that happened within Pentecostal and Assembly of God churches when I was a young boy and teen and have folks in my family who are Pentecostal Holiness and Assembly church attenders.

Some of them have tried, awfully hard at times, to sway me, prove me wrong or both, reference the Holy Spirit, tongues, signs and wonders, revelations, words from God...etc.

Reference a stand on whether God chooses or we choose and eternal security,... I only know that God sought me out and saved me when I had no desire or ability to seek Him, see the truth of His Word or save myself.

Concerning that and security now and in eternity, (not a license to sin)...


Romans 8:

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I spent 21 years active duty in the military and now 9 years as a Police Officer. During a portion, (too large of a portion of time), of my military career I was a prodigal son but He never let me go. I suffered loss and pain as a result of my sin but He never took His Spirit from me.


Before that time and since, The Lord has used me to lead people to Him, to be both a seed-planter and watering-pot. Souls have been saved, because when He saved me, He saved me forever...once and for all, paid for and sealed to be His for all eternity.

I long to be with Him and have great and precious promises that I will before very long.


I'm evaluating if this is time well spent, if it really matters, is just a platform for me and others to vent, or is time better spent in personal study and prayer.


The world is unravelling, it is coming apart at the seams, both spiritually and physically and I see our time is short.


Thank you all again. My sincerest prayer and hope for you all is....


Numbers 6: "The LORD bless you and keep you; 25 the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; 26 the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace."