single or double-predestination

[Foundthelight]

Definitely double.

 

[Imblessed]

Well, it looks like we are all in agreement. the only one who voted single isn't even Calvinist....

interesting, for sure.....

 

[CCWoody]

Just wanted to know what the prevailing view is around here.

Does God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing? Or does God actively keep the reprobate from salvation?

If these are my choices:

single - God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing?
double - God actively keep the reprobate from salvation?

Then I will have to vote single. Please clarify.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, it looks like we are all in agreement. the only one who voted single isn't even Calvinist....

interesting, for sure.....

Good Day, Imblessed

I voted single, I only find "positive" election unto salvation in the pages of scripture.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[reformedfan]

didja skip Romans 9?

 

[cygnusx1]

a point to clarify :


Why did God choose Jacob ?

because He loved Him Sovereignly ........ mercy is always Sovereign.(Justice never can be)


Why did God NOT choose Ishmael Esau Pharoah and Judas ?

Because He didn't want to , this had nothing to do with their sin otherwise no-one would be elect!


Finally , why did God condemn Pharoah Ishmael Esau and Judas ?

Because of the sin of ONE man : Adam.

Reprobates cannot be elect ,
they cannot escape being condemned by birth ,
but they can choose to add to their condemnation by wicked deeds ,
and they are commanded to Repent , and place faith in Christ , IF they will , they will be saved.

 

[reformedfan]

& because God hardened Pharoah's heart. Hmmmm.... God did that!?!?! Is God unrighteous?? no, sez Romans 9:14. Oooh! Lookit Ro 9:22 & those vessels of wrath God prepared for destruction.

God prepared them for destruction!?!? My word, is God unrighteous? (See above for the answer in case you forgot)

 

[cygnusx1]

& because God hardened Pharoah's heart. Hmmmm.... God did that!?!?! Is God unrighteous?? no, sez Romans 9:14. Oooh! Lookit Ro 9:22 & those vessels of wrath God prepared for destruction.

God prepared them for destruction!?!? My word, is God unrighteous? (See above for the answer in case you forgot)

yes , and just how does God "prepare a vessel for destruction" ?

By being kind , loving , patient , gracious and granting such a revelation that were it not for the wretchedness of the fallen human condition , would easily be enough to spare them.

as Van Til has said , God didn't just make men to damn them , there is a whole history to consider .

 

[PapaLandShark]

I chose double. Suprise!

 

[CCWoody]

I chose double. Suprise!

I'm still waiting for clarification before I vote.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm still waiting for clarification before I vote.

we both like Augustine Woody , so here is something to chew on ...

Augustine, beautifully explaining these words to the people (Augustine on John, tract. 95), has spoken as follows: "That is, he has been irrevocably destined to the judgment of eternal fire." Likewise concerning the reprobate, the same is true: "Who then believeth not is already judged" (John 3:18), that is (as the aforesaid author explains), (tract. xii), already is damned: "Not that judgment now is manifest, but that judgment is already wrought." Likewise explaining these words of John the Baptist: man has received" (John 3:32), he speaks in this wise (tract. xiv): is a certain people prepared to wrath by God, damned with the Devil." "Those dead scorners, predestinated to eternal death." Again (tract. xlviii): "Why did the Lord say to the Jews: (John 10:26), "Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep" (John 10:26), unless he saw that they were predestinated to everlasting destruction and not to life eternal by the price of his own blood." Also, explaining these words of the Lord (ibid): "My sheep hear my voice and I know hem and they follow me and I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand: My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s ahnd" (John 10:27-29), and he says this: "Wht can the wolf do? What can the thief and robber do? They destroy none, except those predestined to destruction." Speaking in like manner concerning the two worlds (tract. lxxxvii) he says: "The whole world is the church, and the whole world hates the church; the world, therefore, hates the world, the hostile that which is reconciled, the damned that which is saved, the polluted that which is cleansed." Likewise (tract. cx) he says: "There is a world concerning which the Apostle says: ‘that we should be condemned with this world’ (1 Cor 11:32). For that world that the Lord does not pray, for he certainly cannot ignore that for which it is predestinated." Likewise (tract cvii): "Judas the betrayer of Christ is called the son of perdition as the one predestinated to be the betrayer." Likewise in Enchiridion (cap. 100): "To their damnation whom he has justly predestinated to punishment." Likewise in the book On Man’s Perfection in Righteousness he says (cap. 13): This good, which is required, there is not anyone who does it, not even one; but this refers to that class of men who have been predestinated to destruction: indeed, upon those the foreknowledge of God looks down and pronounces sentence." Likewise in the books de Civitate Dei (lib. xxii, c. 24): " Which is given to those who hae been predestinated to death." Likewise blessed Gregory the Pope (Moral. lib. xxxiv, c.2): "Leviathan with all his members has been cut off for eternal torment." Likewise holy Fulgentius in the third book Concerning the Truth of Predestination and Grace (lib. iii, c. 5) says: "God has prepared punishment for those sinners (at least) who have been justly predestinated to the suffering of punishment." And blessed Fulgentius has composed one whole book for his friend Monimus concerning this tantamount question, that is: Concerning the Predestination of the Reprobate to Destruction, (lib. i).

http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/brevior.htm

 

[Bulldog]

I think there might be a misunderstanding.

When I voted for "double predestination", I did not mean to imply equal ultimacy - I don't believe that God actively reprobates in the sense that God views all as being nuetral, and then chooses to elect some and "make" others reporbate. I believe that scripturaly, God actively reprobates in the sense that his hardening or blinding is a re-inforcement of man's rebellion and already depraved nature.

 

[Imblessed]

I'm still waiting for clarification before I vote.

let's see, I'm not sure if I can clarify very well, but here goes

When God predestined people to either salvation or damnation, how active is He in the reprobation? In other words, some believe that God actively keeps the reprobate from knowing Him or searching for Him, while others believe He just lets them do what would come naturally to all of us.


It's plain that it's an active job on His part to change our hearts to recieve Him---regeneration before faith and all that.

Is He just as active on the reprobates part? I'm thinking of Pharoah right now, who surely would have let the Isrealites go long before he did, had God not hardened his heart. In fact, there were a couple of times he started to let them leave, only to change his mind.

What about the people who seem sincere in their search for God, wanting to believe but not being able to? Trying to make sense of christianity, but not being able to? Maybe those searching for God and finding themselves in a pseudo-christian religion(JW, LDS) instead? Is God actively keeping them from real christianity and real faith?

Is that clarification enough?

 

[CCWoody]

This is my post where I specifically needed clarification:

If these are my choices:

single - God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing?
double - God actively keep the reprobate from salvation?

Please clarify.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is my post where I specifically needed clarification:

Hi woody , hold onto your hat , we are going for A RIDE

I am pleased to see your not rushing to answer this one Brother , as it can have a marked detrimental effect on how we view God and how we view lost sinners (hell fuel someone said)

I think single predestination is impossible .......... It is proposed by some that God simply chooses and knows the names of all who will be saved , and the rest he just passes them over as a mass ....... with no definate aim in mind !

Like God would create a person without knowing the full history and destination of that person ?

Also , although there is not equal ultimacy in how God works , He doesn't put forward a positive effectual sin enticing power in the creature , even though He puts forward a positive influence in and upon the Elect.

YET , the Bible does view God as the one potter over two very different clay pots ....... so the idea that God is simply passive in the decree of reprobation is false.

Now how God is active is a wonder to behold ........ not by doing evil to men , but by doing them good , by multiple acts of common grace , which does include the sincere offer of the Gospel , they would be saved IF they would cease from their warfare , and humbly submit to God's Son.

So I conclude that mere permission of reprobation , ie, preterition , is false.
And that through God's goodness men turn it to their hurt!
Did God mean this to happen .... ?
Yes and no ..... God's will is varied.
If God predestines the means to the Elect obtaining salvation , then God can and does predestine the valid ground of condemnation ... which is based upon several revelations ........ the Greatest being The Messiah ..

 

[CCWoody]

You misunderstand why I need clarification. It was asserted that double-predestination entails that God actively keep the reprobate from salvation? I need to know what is meant by this statement, especially given than it was asserted that single-predestination is God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing?

Now, to be honest, what has been labeled as single predestination seems closer to the language of our creeds (1646 Westminster):

Chapter III

Of God's Eternal Decree

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]

Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

​

So, you can understand my curiosity about what is meant by "actively keep from salvation," especially considering that the confessions says (and to which I agree) that "they may be called" in some external manner. That certainly doesn't appear to be an active operation to keep from salvation. The very wording seems to imply that there are those who seek and desire salvation, yet the Lord actively prevents them from reaching it.


Thus, I need clarification since the plain language of the Westminster confession and the language of the question would lead me to vote "single predestination."

 

[cygnusx1]

You misunderstand why I need clarification. It was asserted that double-predestination entails that God actively keep the reprobate from salvation? I need to know what is meant by this statement, especially given than it was asserted that single-predestination is God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing?

Now, to be honest, what has been labeled as single predestination seems closer to the language of our creeds (1646 Westminster):

Chapter III


Of God's Eternal Decree

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]

Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]


​

So, you can understand my curiosity about what is meant by "actively keep from salvation," especially considering that the confessions says (and to which I agree) that "they may be called" in some external manner. That certainly doesn't appear to be an active operation to keep from salvation. The very wording seems to imply that there are those who seek and desire salvation, yet the Lord actively prevents them from reaching it.



Thus, I need clarification since the plain language of the Westminster confession and the language of the question would lead me to vote "single predestination."

well pointed out .......... and can you give us a quote from the same confession of faith about Reprobation (maybe it is under the doctrine of election ?)

 

[CCWoody]

well pointed out .......... and can you give us a quote from the same confession of faith about Reprobation (maybe it is under the doctrine of election ?)

Those quotes do pertain to Reprobation and there is not a heading entitled "election." In what chapter do you suggest I look?

 

[cygnusx1]

Those quotes do pertain to Reprobation and there is not a heading entitled "election." In what chapter do you suggest I look?

hi woody , this is about as good a page as any you will find on the decree of God and Reprobation.Note the Westminser Confession (along with others) states double predestination !

The Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter 3, Articles 1 & 7.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. ...

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.


http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/DoublePredestination.htm

 

[CCWoody]

I have already cited Chapter 3.7 Its language is specific "passed by." That language was used to describe single predestination in the OP. Hence, I need clarification on the terms and language before I can render my vote.