single or double-predestination

[cygnusx1]

I have already cited Chapter 3.7 Its language is specific "passed by." That language was used to describe single predestination in the OP. Hence, I need clarification on the terms and language before I can render my vote.

As I understand it , first God passes them by (from the decree of Election) and then ''ordain(s) them to dishonor and wrath for their sin.

so there is a passing by , this must be so because the side of Unconditional Election is not contingent upon works of any kind (before the twins had done good or bad)

however , that passing by is not the end of the decree of reprobation , God cannot and will not condemn the "innocent" , so they are devoted to dishonour and wrath for their sin (double predestination)

Those who oppose double predestination (Lutherans although not Martin Luther) do so based upon the concept of preterition alone , and leave the lives of the non-elect undetermined ....... there is no decree concerning these ..... that concept is not upheld by the Confessions , nor by Augustine and certainly not by Calvin.

so if you want to be Lutheran (being it will not make you agree with Luther) vote single predestination , if you want to be Calvinistic vote Double Predestination , if you still don't feel sure , fine , search some more

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

I have always had a time of getting my head around this whole single or double discussion. I voted single because in order for a man to be retrobated God does not have to do a thing, in order to be regenerated God must take positive action, they are not equal.

Peace to u,


Bill

 

[cygnusx1]

Good Day, All

I have always had a time of getting my head around this whole single or double discussion. I voted single because in order for a man to be retrobated God does not have to do a thing, in order to be regenerated God must take positive action, they are not equal.

Peace to u,


Bill

Hi BBAS
upon closer inspection it is incorrect to say ''God does not have to do a thing''
for no-one would be reprobated if they were not brought into existence , and no-one would be building up wrath for themselves if they weren't granted common grace ........... everyones next breath comes from The Lord!

Also ... Romans 9 does speak of God the potter fashioning not ONE type of pot .... but TWO!

sure , God doesn't work sin in people , no-one said He did , all Calvinistic creeds speak of a decree that is both permissive and effective ..... yet even that which is permitted is permitted with a reason : God's Glory!

the bottom line is , when God creates does He know what He is doing ?
When he makes every single person does God have a knowledge prior to there creation of their end?
Or is God an abstract painter , an improviser?



21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Just wanted to post:

http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

The goal of this essay is not to provide a comprehensive analysis, exposition, or defense of the doctrine of election or predestination. Rather, the essay is limited to a concern for the "double" aspect of predestination with particular reference to the question of the relationship of God's sovereignty to reprobation or preterition.
The use of the qualifying term "double" has been somewhat confusing in discussions concerning predestination. The term apparently means one thing within the circle of Reformed theology and quite another outside that circle and at a popular level of theological discourse. The term "double" has been set in contrast with a notion of "single" predestination. It has also been used as a synonym for a symmetrical view of predestination which sees election and reprobation being worked out in a parallel mode of divine operation. Both usages involve a serious distortion of the Reformed view of double predestination.

Have I fallen pray to the non-refomed distortion of what "double" means with in this discourse?

Audio files... Real Audio:

http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/Page7.html#sproul

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Imblessed]

Good Day, All

Just wanted to post:

http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html



Have I fallen pray to the non-refomed distortion of what "double" means with in this discourse?

Audio files... Real Audio:

http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/Page7.html#sproul

Peace to u,

Bill

maybe we have. I sure don't claim to know alot about it, and I see some of the confusion coming out now.....

What I mean by "double" goes back to the scripture of God hardening the hearts of some--such as pharoah--my own confusion about people who seem to want to follow God, or are looking for God and just don't "see" it--or end up in a pseudo-christian relgion such as the JW's or LDS.

See post 33 for more detail...

I understand that most people just don't seem to care one way or another, but what about the people who want to accept christianity, but can't seem too? What about those who think they are, but are following such a distorted view that they are decieved?

Is God actively keeping them from understanding or knowing because they are not Elect? That is what I understand Double Predestination to be talking about.

I could have it all wrong. Heck, maybe I shouldn't even have made this poll, but my curiousity got the better of me...wondering how people feel about the subject....

 

[Gisbertus Voetius]

If these are my choices:

single - God choose the Elect and simply pass over the rest, allowing them them to do their own thing?
double - God actively keep the reprobate from salvation?

Then I will have to vote single. Please clarify.

We are singly damned by our kinship with the federal head Adam.

Those elected are singly regenerated by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.

It's the all temporal view.

 

[Antman_05]

Single Just doesn't make sense so i went double

 

[SoaringEagle]

I don't see scriptures saying God Foredetermines who's saved and who's damned. Why can't it be He foreknows? Why would God command one to repent and believe (something they must chose to do) and then decree them to not do it?

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't see scriptures saying God Foredetermines who's saved and who's damned. Why can't it be He foreknows? Why would God command one to repent and believe (something they must chose to do) and then decree them to not do it?

Good day, Soaring eagle

"Foredetermine" Is that a word found in Scripture, I do not believe it is.

We do have:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved

The greek word here is
proorizō

It is a compound word so to speak, prefix and verb.

pro

Thayer Definition:

1) before

Part of Speech: preposition

Much like the the sufix "pre" in prepay.

horizō

Thayer Definition:

1) to define

1a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

1b1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

1b2) to ordain, determine, appoint

Part of Speech: verb

an other way to render this is pre determine.


proorizō

Thayer Definition:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Part of Speech: verb

Some render, to ordain before

(ASV) having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[CCWoody]

maybe we have. I sure don't claim to know alot about it, and I see some of the confusion coming out now.....

What I mean by "double" goes back to the scripture of God hardening the hearts of some--such as pharoah--my own confusion about people who seem to want to follow God, or are looking for God and just don't "see" it--or end up in a pseudo-christian relgion such as the JW's or LDS.

Ah, I see. Is there a single creed anywhere in all of Christendom which puts forth the idea that God must actively harden hearts in order to reprobate a man? That would seem to suggest that, unless God actively hardens that man, he will truly seek for salvation.

If we view the race of fallen man, then the Lord actively chooses some out of that mass [Election] and the Lord actively passes over by NOT choosing others [Reprobation]. I do not believe that we can sustain any argument that the Lord is merely passave to the man whom He Reprobates by passing by them for Election for I don't believe the Lord is passage towards ANY man. Neither do I think we can say that God actively Reprobates them in the sense that he hardens them into Reprobation. They are already hard; they are already fallen, God hating people. God need not harden them to seal them in their Reprobation. God need do nothing more than give them up to their lusts.

I do not think that Pharoah's hardening had anything to do with Reprobating him. He was already a Reprobate by the time God hardened his heart, or removed any type of "Prevenient grace" to keep him from being as depraved and God hating as he could be. God raised him up already Reprobated to display his power in him.

Election and Reprobation occured before creation. Reprobation and Election do not occur in the passing of creation as God softens or hardens hearts. These people are already either Elected or Reprobated.

 

[Imblessed]

Ah, I see. Is there a single creed anywhere in all of Christendom which puts forth the idea that God must actively harden hearts in order to reprobate a man? That would seem to suggest that, unless God actively hardens that man, he will truly seek for salvation.

If we view the race of fallen man, then the Lord actively chooses some out of that mass [Election] and the Lord actively passes over by NOT choosing others [Reprobation]. I do not believe that we can sustain any argument that the Lord is merely passave to the man whom He Reprobates by passing by them for Election for I don't believe the Lord is passage towards ANY man. Neither do I think we can say that God actively Reprobates them in the sense that he hardens them into Reprobation. They are already hard; they are already fallen, God hating people. God need not harden them to seal them in their Reprobation. God need do nothing more than give them up to their lusts.

I do not think that Pharoah's hardening had anything to do with Reprobating him. He was already a Reprobate by the time God hardened his heart, or removed any type of "Prevenient grace" to keep him from being as depraved and God hating as he could be. God raised him up already Reprobated to display his power in him.

Election and Reprobation occured before creation. Reprobation and Election do not occur in the passing of creation as God softens or hardens hearts. These people are already either Elected or Reprobated.

I think I see where you are coming from....but it still doesn't explain (for me) the people who seem to want to follow God but end up JW's or Mormon's or what-not. Do you suppose that their wanting to follow God is based not so much on their actual desire to please God, but that inate "knowledge" we have of God and their desire to "work" their way into heaven? Does that make sense?

My in-laws are JW's. before they became JW's they were agnostic. My mother-in-law was raised in what you would call an abusive household(her dad was alcoholic and overbearing) and my father-in-law raised "methodist" but his dad is a Mason and church was not a priority at all. So they were just ambivalant about God. When the JW's came to their door--they claimed that they finally got the answers to the hard questions that no one else seemed to be able to answer. My personal feeling is that they finally found a relgion where they can "do the right things" and put in the "status quo" and be ok because of who they are associated with. They don't see it that way though. They truly believe they are right.

It's something I stuggle with. Not so much the people who are atheists or anti-God---but the people who seem to want to do the right thing by God and end up totally off track.

 

[CCWoody]

I think I see where you are coming from....but it still doesn't explain (for me) the people who seem to want to follow God but end up JW's or Mormon's or what-not. Do you suppose that their wanting to follow God is based not so much on their actual desire to please God, but that inate "knowledge" we have of God and their desire to "work" their way into heaven? Does that make sense?

My in-laws are JW's. before they became JW's they were agnostic. My mother-in-law was raised in what you would call an abusive household(her dad was alcoholic and overbearing) and my father-in-law raised "methodist" but his dad is a Mason and church was not a priority at all. So they were just ambivalant about God. When the JW's came to their door--they claimed that they finally got the answers to the hard questions that no one else seemed to be able to answer. My personal feeling is that they finally found a relgion where they can "do the right things" and put in the "status quo" and be ok because of who they are associated with. They don't see it that way though. They truly believe they are right.

It's something I stuggle with. Not so much the people who are atheists or anti-God---but the people who seem to want to do the right thing by God and end up totally off track.

My fine sister. Before I really respond to your post, let me ask you a simple question:

If Reprobation is an active thing in the way you say, that God's Reprobation is to harden them to fall into JW, LDS, etc., then what we are really saying is that becoming a member of JW, LDS, etc. is a sure sign that they are Reprobate.

Do you really believe that the members of these organizations have all been Reprobated by God?

 

[Imblessed]

My fine sister. Before I really respond to your post, let me ask you a simple question:

If Reprobation is an active thing in the way you say, that God's Reprobation is to harden them to fall into JW, LDS, etc., then what we are really saying is that becoming a member of JW, LDS, etc. is a sure sign that they are Reprobate.

Do you really believe that the members of these organizations have all been Reprobated by God?

see, now you've hit me where I"m really confused. No, I don't think that all off the members of these organizations have necessarily been reprobated by God.

Do you mean the fact that they are in them proves they are reprobate?(in that case what about the ones who get out....?)

Or do you mean that there could be christians in those Organizations?(which begs the question how far off the beaten path can one go theologically before you are too far off?)

I "understand" about Total Depravity, but there are many people who seem to want to do good by God that are "way out there" theologically if you know what I mean.

I guess I'm trying to understand why they are still so confused if they seem to want to know God properly. The Word says to repent and call on the Lord--aren't they doing that? In some way?

 

[mannysee]

i have just finished reading an article by Vincent Cheung on election. As i am still working through 'double predestination', i think i may be moving toward accepting this argument.

 

[cygnusx1]

many assume reprobation is nothing to do with sin , they think like this because Election is from everlasting , before Creation!


yet , a close look at the ground for condemnation will show that reprobation is with due consideration of sin.

take the sinners condemnation , had he died before he even sinned , he would have been lost (except for Sovereign Grace)

and what is more the very fact that sinners die before they can sin , is evidence of being condemned by the sin of another:Adam.

A man is not condemned for breaking the Law of Moses , he is not condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and the Gospel ......... these are additions to their already condemned state.

The decree of Reprobation ......... all mankind are reprobated by the act of one man , Adam , from out of that lump of clay (fallen) , the Lord is pleased to mold vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath , God is not making innocent reprobates for destruction , they already have lost their innocence , through the sin of one man.

In Romans 9 , we are given much in the way of anaology ........ the case of Jacob and Esau being the strongest .

''The elder shall serve the younger''

this can be taken at many levels .

yet , a closer inspection of the whole chapter , will show that the decree of Reprobation served the decree of Election ...... NOT the other way about!

(Infra / Supra)

True , God from all eternity decreed all that will be , but in reference to God , sin and reprobation there is order.

Most men hate Calvinism , because they assume that God takes innocent men , places them in a decree in order to burn them forever!

That is so far from the truth that it is shocking!

God permitted the Fall of Adam , which included the reprobation of the entire human race, from which God is pleased to make an Election (also before time) unto everlasting life on the grounds of Mercy alone ..... who needs mercy when there is no sin!

The rest of mankind are left in their sin , due to the sin of Adam , and although given many opportunities to repent and be saved , due to the hardness that is in them from birth , they resist God's Spirit and add to their condemnation , ie , they are "fitted for destruction "

So The Lord permitted sin , in order to show mercy.
The decree of the permission for sin (Esau) serves the decree to Love the Elect (Jacob)

Amen!

 

[Foundthelight]

My fine sister. Before I really respond to your post, let me ask you a simple question:

If Reprobation is an active thing in the way you say, that God's Reprobation is to harden them to fall into JW, LDS, etc., then what we are really saying is that becoming a member of JW, LDS, etc. is a sure sign that they are Reprobate.

Do you really believe that the members of these organizations have all been Reprobated by God?

You have hit the nail on the head! Reprobation is a state of being. It means that we are not living in accordance with God's direction. It is not an action by God. We are all dead in our sin, i.e. reprobate. When we are bought to life in Christ by the Holy Spirit we can rise out of that state.

If we backslide we are said to be reprobate again.

 

[Gisbertus Voetius]

"Reprobation is a state of being."

That's exactly right! The race (human) is reprobate and God pulls some people from that race and returns them to their originally designed state as image bearers of God.

The race failed but God redeems some of that race for himself. Those who have been redeemed have been "singled out" for God's purposes.

 

[CCWoody]

see, now you've hit me where I"m really confused. No, I don't think that all off the members of these organizations have necessarily been reprobated by God.

Do you mean the fact that they are in them proves they are reprobate?(in that case what about the ones who get out....?)

Or do you mean that there could be christians in those Organizations?(which begs the question how far off the beaten path can one go theologically before you are too far off?)

I "understand" about Total Depravity, but there are many people who seem to want to do good by God that are "way out there" theologically if you know what I mean.

Let me clear things up. No I do not think that people in these orginazations have been Reprobated by God, at least not all of them.

Election ~ God's decision, made in eternity, regarding the final state of a man for salvation from his sin and reconciliation to God.
Reprobation ~ God's decision, made in eternity, regarding the final state of a man for judgment on account of his sin and damnation by God.

(Clever Calvinists here will figure out what my Lapsarian order is with these definitions. hehehe!)

These are my definitions for Election and Reprobation. I don't think they are repugnant to systametic Calvinist theology, though I can really not claim infallibly that this is so as my Calvinism comes from the Bible and I have never studied Calvinism as a systametic theology.

You had seemed to suggest God hardening someone's heart was a sign of Reprobation in a way what we could see because we could observe the effect of God's hardening as people embraced false religion.

Before we go any further, I suggest we come to a consesus on the definition of Election and Reprobation. Otherwise, Shaka, his eyes closed (if you know what I mean). We will be talking past each other.

I guess I'm trying to understand why they are still so confused if they seem to want to know God properly. The Word says to repent and call on the Lord--aren't they doing that? In some way?

Let me share from my own life. I grew up in a Sacerdotal Christian religion. By that I mean that grace is administed through the sacraments of the church through a priest. Outwardly, I appeard to be seeking God and repenting of my sins. However, I had done nothing, but replace a true relationship with the Lord with a relationship to religion. I was not truly seeking for God, even though it had some of the appearances that I was.

It wasn't until later in life that the Lord truly revealed himself to me.

 

[CCWoody]

The decree of Reprobation ......... all mankind are reprobated by the act of one man , Adam....

I do not think that the proper definition of Reprobation. I think we should all define it before we talk about it. I'll see if I can find a definition from a systametic theology book.

 

[cygnusx1]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]Having thus stated the doctrine of Reprobation, as it is presented in Holy Writ, let us now mention one or two important considerations to guard it against abuse and prevent the reader from making any unwarranted deductions:[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]First, the doctrine of Reprobation does not mean that God purposed to take innocent creatures, make them wicked, and then damn them. Scripture says, "God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions" (Eccl. 7:29). God has not created sinful creatures in order to destroy them, for God is not to be charged with the sin of His creatures. The responsibility and criminality is man's.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]God's decree of Reprobation contemplated Adam's race as fallen, sinful, corrupt, guilty. From it God purposed to save a few as the monuments of His Sovereign grace; the others He determined to destroy as the exemplification of His justice and severity. In determining to destroy these others, God did them no wrong. They had already fallen in Adam, their legal representative; they are therefore born with a sinful nature, and in their sins He leaves them. Nor can they complain. This is as they wish; they have no desire for holiness; they love darkness rather than light. Where, then, is there any injustice if God "gives them up to their own heart's lusts" (Psa. 81:12).[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]Second, the doctrine of Reprobation does not mean that God refuses to save those who earnestly seek salvation. The fact is that the reprobate have no longing for the Saviour: they see in Him no beauty that they should desire Him. They will not come to Christ-why then should God force them to? He turns away none who do come-where then is the injustice of God foredetermining their just doom? None will be punished but for their iniquities; where then is the supposed tyrannical cruelty of the Divine procedure? Remember that God is the Creator of the wicked, not of their wickedness; He is the Author of their being, but not the Infuser of their sin.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]God does not (as we have been slanderously reported to affirm) compel the wicked to sin, as the rider spurs on an unwilling horse. God only says in effect that awful word, "Let them alone" (Matt. 15:14). He needs only to slacken the reins of providential restraint, and withhold the influence of saving grace, and apostate man will only too soon and too surely, of his own accord, fall by his iniquities. Thus the decree of reprobation neither interferes with the bent of man's own fallen nature, nor serves to render him the less inexcusable.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman]Third, the decree of Reprobation in nowise conflicts with God's goodness. Though the non-elect are not the objects of His goodness in the same way or to the same extent as the elect are, yet are they not wholly excluded from a participation of it. They enjoy the good things of Providence (temporal blessings) in common with God's own children, and very often to a higher degree. But how do they improve them? Does the (temporal) goodness of God lead them to repent? Nay, verily, they do but despise "His goodness, and forbearance, and longsuffering," and "after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath" (Rom. 2:4, 5). On what righteous ground, then, can they murmur against not being the objects of His benevolence in the endless ages yet to come? Moreover, if it did not clash with God's mercy and kindness to leave the entire body of the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4) under the guilt of their apostasy still less can it clash with the Divine perfections to leave some of fallen mankind in their sins and punish them for them.[/font]

http://www.freegrace.net/library/Pink/sovereignty/pink_sov_05.html

what interests me , is the whole fallen race are reprobated in Adam ... ie , men aren't singled out for condemnation ........ that is already their standing .

actually 'reprobate' is a Biblical word :

Jer 6:30Reprobate silver shall [men] call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.



anyone have the relevant meaning on this word as used by God. ?

i have found this :

REPROBATE

REPROBATE, a. L. reprobatus, reprobo, to disallow; re and probo, to prove.

1. Not enduring proof or trial; not of standard purity or fineness; disallowed; rejected.

Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them. Jer. 6.

2. Abandoned in sin; lost to virtue or grace.

They profess that they know God, but in works deny him, being abominable and disobedient, and to every good work reprobate. Titus 1.

3. Abandoned to error, or in apostasy. 2Tim. 3.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/reprobate.html