Sincere Question

[Aaron-Aggie]

The kneeling is easy to explain.

One would kneel infront of a king in honor of him.

We kneel before our Lord's real presence

The Sing of the Cross is a prayer and reminder of the Trinity

 

[KennySe]

i notice the catholic church is very ritualistic. can someone explain some things? Like the sit stand kneel sit stand kneel that always goes on, the crossing of yourself and why read in latin?

Standing is a sign of respect. Imagine when the Queen Of England walks into a room. Who remains seated?
Likewise, and moreso, when the priest reads the Gospel Reading, Jesus' very words are spoken; we stand in respect of our King.

"Every knee shall bow." Kneeling is a sign of respect, also.
As the Eucharistic Prayer begins, we kneel.

So for various parts of the Mass, we take these diffferent postures.

*

The Sign of the Cross is a prayer.
With this action we recall our Baptism: In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Sirit. Amen.
The Sign of the Cross is a blessing. We should bless ourselves as we are Children of God.

*

Latin was the common language of the Roman Empire "world" of the Mediterranean area. Everyone knew that language (as well as their own local language). So, the Mass was in Latin, as a practicality, that wherever you were, the Mass was in the common language.
We have the Mass, or parts of it, in Latin, also as a form of unity. Think of all Catholic churches throughout the entire world, on Sunday, saying the same prayer in Latin. Think of that as ONE united prayer of the One Body of believers. ONE prayer to the Lord.

also is the catholic church a decendent of the jewish synogoge, except they accepted Christ. do many of the rituals have something to do with that?

Yes.

The Lord's Last Supper took place during a Jewish meal, and there were jewish elements there. That was the first Holy Mass.

You see, the New Covenant did not come into existence from nothing. The Holy Mass is not an entirely new worship. It is the continuation of sacrifice to the Lord, reaching back to the sacrifice by Abel, of Abraham, of Melchizedeck...

It is the fulfillment of God's plan of salvation for ALL mankind.

The Messiah was born of a Jewess, under Jewish law.
When the New Covenant was instituted by Jesus, His Apostles were Jewish.

Look in the Book of Revelation, and see who is at the Supper of the Lamb: all the saints.
And the Prophets of the Old Testament were released from hades by Jesus Christ their Redeemer. The Prophets partake of the Lamb's Supper, as we partake of that SAME Supper during Holy Mass.

ALL Believers are Jews by faith.

 

[Bastoune]

What's more, the Jewish worship was very liturgical, with praying out of a Psalter (book of Psalms) which is like the "Liturgy of the Hours" (also called the "Divine Office") in which Catholics pray the psalms, canticles and read other Scriptures, as well as intercessory prayer (morning, day, evening, night).

At the Catholic Mass on Sundays, there is always an OT Scripture read, followed by a "responsorial Psalm" which is sung (as the Psalms were always done in Jewish worship), then a NT Scripture, followed by a reading out of one of the four books of the Gospel. There is a great deal of reverence for the reading of the Gospels because they contain the words of Jesus Christ while He dwelt among us! Thus, it is for us the central part of our readings because Christ is the center of our faith (which goes without saying).

It's all about reverence and orderly worship as well.

 

[secretdawn]

so then how do you and the church feel about other churches.
I like my church because when i get there, the songs are, modern yes, but more importantly upbeat and happy...the music pastor is jumping around and everyone is EXCITED to be at church...the sermons fit my life, and i can apply the lessons almost immediatly...
i have been to catholic mass and it was so somber and no one seemed to be enjoying themselves...they are beautiful churches, though
where as my church it is like a celebration for God everytime, people are in tears (myself included) over God, and the overwhelming love for him is actually almost too much to handle at times...sort of bowls you over...
but my question is, is there something wrong with this...you say orderly worship, and i can understand that in one point of view, but is there biblical backing? Is there something wrong with other churches (aside from the missing doctrine). Are they still good followers, are there churches still recognized by Christ, in your views. Or is it just a difference in how you prefer to worship?
I am not trying to be insulting if it sounded that way...

 

[Bastoune]

The music isn't always somber, depends on the church/congregation, or the day... I've even been to a Christian rock Mass. And at the church where I was stationed at, the 10am Sunday Mass was the Gospel Choir Mass!

Sometimes there's organ music, other times bands, other times choirs, other times soloists... many churches have one mass of each.

 

[Michelina]

but my question is, is there something wrong with this...you say orderly worship, and i can understand that in one point of view, but is there biblical backing? Is there something wrong with other churches (aside from the missing doctrine). Are they still good followers, are there churches still recognized by Christ, in your views. Or is it just a difference in how you prefer to worship?

Good Question.

St. Paul speaks of good order at the Mass of his time.

Our Mass is reverent and quiet compared to some. But it shouldn't be sombre. (I know that in many places it is. In other places, it is quite noisy.) I like the sort of service you have at your Church but 'within limits'. The Church wants music at every Mass, when feasible. This is the ideal but it's not always 'feasible'.

I would like to address one point: we come together at Mass to worship God. That is our primary focus. Joy is not inappropriate at Worship, but expressing Joy is not central to Worship. I don't want to sound like a fuddy-duddy but I have reached a point in my life where I focus more on the reverent awe of what we do at Mass than on anything else.

 

[Bastoune]

Good Question.

St. Paul speaks of good order at the Mass of his time.

1 Cor. 14:40

 

[thereselittleflower]

so then how do you and the church feel about other churches.
I like my church because when i get there, the songs are, modern yes, but more importantly upbeat and happy...the music pastor is jumping around and everyone is EXCITED to be at church...the sermons fit my life, and i can apply the lessons almost immediatly...
i have been to catholic mass and it was so somber and no one seemed to be enjoying themselves...they are beautiful churches, though
where as my church it is like a celebration for God everytime, people are in tears (myself included) over God, and the overwhelming love for him is actually almost too much to handle at times...sort of bowls you over...
but my question is, is there something wrong with this...you say orderly worship, and i can understand that in one point of view, but is there biblical backing? Is there something wrong with other churches (aside from the missing doctrine). Are they still good followers, are there churches still recognized by Christ, in your views. Or is it just a difference in how you prefer to worship?
I am not trying to be insulting if it sounded that way...

No . .yyou are not being insulting. . you are asking an trying to understand . .

Sometimes protestants get offended at some of explanations we give when we talk about these differences, so I hope this will not offend you . . it is not intended to.

I had been a protestant for over 30 years before converting to Catholicism . . and I know exactly what you mean by beng overwhelmed by God's love and presence in worship . . if one doesn't know what you mean, it is hard to describe so that they do . . . . And churches that did not overtly experience this I thought were somehow defective . .. but God put me in a protestant church that I thought was "dead" to show me there was somthing else that did not need such experiences to bring people very close to God . . . then He put me back in the most incredible protestant church I had yet been a part of . .. the services were so powerful, the presence of God so deep and strong, I cannot express sometimes what it was like . .

So, given your experience of Catholic Mass, you are probably wondering what would induce me to give that up to become Catholic? . . . you're probably thinking, 'is she crazy?'

Well, no, I'm not crazy, and I was induced to give up such a church service because I am being offered something even more powerful, more deep in God, more real . .

The Catholic Mass is not somber . . . . it is joyful . . but this joy is experienced and expressed in a differen way . . . there is an inner river of joy that runs deep, very, very deep like a river running deep underground and it courses thruogh your soul powerfully . .. and this is most evident during the liturgy of the Eucharist and the consecration of the Eucharist and its distribution to the body of Christ . .

In the church services before, the love and power of God was intermingled with a certain amount of emotionalism . . unavoidable due to the way services are conducted . .

What I am finding in the Catholic Church is the same power and love of God minus the emotionalism . . which is making the experience of God's presence deeper, more profound, more real . . wave after wave of God's presence courses through the pews when the Eucharsit is consecrated . . many here have felt this many times . . it is so hard to explain this . . but there is a unity unlike anything I have ever experienced in a church before, and the last one I was in the unity was very real . . but not like this . . . I can many times actually feel the body of believers being knitted togther . .

There is such peace . . and even though I cannot yet partake of the Eucharist, I many times feel as though I have actually fed on Christ in a way I never experienced in a Protestant service . .


There is not something wrong with how we worshipped when in the protestant church . . but our worship was incomplete .. lacking . . even though it was wonderfull . . . and now that I have found what it was lacking, I feel no desire to return to it . . I want to go deeper and deeper into what I have found as it transcends what the protestants churches are able to offer . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[secretdawn]

I am not sure I understand Eucharist that much.

 

[Benedicta00]

so then how do you and the church feel about other churches.
I like my church because when i get there, the songs are, modern yes, but more importantly upbeat and happy...the music pastor is jumping around and everyone is EXCITED to be at church...the sermons fit my life, and i can apply the lessons almost immediatly...
i have been to catholic mass and it was so somber and no one seemed to be enjoying themselves...they are beautiful churches, though
where as my church it is like a celebration for God everytime, people are in tears (myself included) over God, and the overwhelming love for him is actually almost too much to handle at times...sort of bowls you over...
but my question is, is there something wrong with this...you say orderly worship, and i can understand that in one point of view, but is there biblical backing? Is there something wrong with other churches (aside from the missing doctrine). Are they still good followers, are there churches still recognized by Christ, in your views. Or is it just a difference in how you prefer to worship?
I am not trying to be insulting if it sounded that way...

I’ll donate my 2 cents.

Mass is Calvary the sacrifice of our lord Jesus as he commanded to do in memory of him so there isn’t going to be hooting and hollering at Mass- there wasn’t any in Calvary. There is joy because we know our redemption is at hand but the bottom line is we are there to worship the God of the universe and remember the sacrifice of Christ, not be entertained or to be emotional lifted.

What goes on at Mass is in the spiritual realm and not the natural realm. It can be understood by reading revelations. Mass is the heavenly worship that comes down to us and becomes a reality. That is exactly what “Do this in memory of me” means, it is not to recall an event but to make the one event a reality and that is what we do. When one realizes what takes place at Mass, nothing could ever top that. Our savior who was once slain who now lives forever comes down from heaven and resides in our hearts.

 

[Bastoune]

I am not sure I understand Eucharist that much.

This might help:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=161175&postcount=3

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/a.html

 

[SamInService]

So very beautifully put, therese!

Very true, when I was attending Protestant services, there were occasions when I was quite sure, and I remain convinced, that the Spirit was presence. What I began to find, however, was that this type of emotionalism can come and go. By comparison, the reverence that I experience at the Mass, when I am in the presence of Christ, who is fully and truly present, body and blood, humanity and divinity, does not come and go, but endures.

This leads me to other thoughts. The notion of time is a very powerful one. God is eternal, existing outside of time; more precisely, time exists in Him. We, however, exist in time and are bound by it. The one setting in which the eternal touches our world is in the Eucharist, when Christ is made present to us again, the same as always. This is a mystery, and a darned glorious one too!

The other thought is that the Catholic Church, along with the Orthodox Church, have a conception of the complete person, dealing with the very mundane and physical along with the intellectual. The sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, use common, physical elements and transform them. In this sense, God makes Himself present to us in a very physical, corporeal way, in addition to being an intellectual concept. I find that very comforting.

Just my 2.75 cents worth...

Blessings,
Sam

 

[thereselittleflower]

So very beautifully put, therese!

Very true, when I was attending Protestant services, there were occasions when I was quite sure, and I remain convinced, that the Spirit was presence. What I began to find, however, was that this type of emotionalism can come and go. By comparison, the reverence that I experience at the Mass, when I am in the presence of Christ, who is fully and truly present, body and blood, humanity and divinity, does not come and go, but endures.

Sam. yes . . . . Enduring . . that is a very good way to state it . . Enduring instead of transient . .

This leads me to other thoughts. The notion of time is a very powerful one. God is eternal, existing outside of time; more precisely, time exists in Him. We, however, exist in time and are bound by it. The one setting in which the eternal touches our world is in the Eucharist, when Christ is made present to us again, the same as always. This is a mystery, and a darned glorious one too!

And Yes, I agree! The Eucharist brings time and eternity together . . we enter eternity in a mysterious way in the Eucharsit . . we, in a mysterious way, enter time and eternity simultaneously and are, in a manner of speaking, transported outside of time while still being within it. . .

The other thought is that the Catholic Church, along with the Orthodox Church, have a conception of the complete person, dealing with the very mundane and physical along with the intellectual. The sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, use common, physical elements and transform them. In this sense, God makes Himself present to us in a very physical, corporeal way, in addition to being an intellectual concept. I find that very comforting.

Just my 2.75 cents worth...

Blessings,
Sam

I think this is much more than 2.75 cents worth

We are being transformed not just spiritually, but in every way, physically as well . . God is ministering to our whole being . . the physical as well as the spiritual . . and by transforming the common, physical elements of the bread and wine, when we partake of them, they transform us body and soul . . coporeally and spiritually . .




it is in what appears to be so mundane that we are so surprised as protestants to find the reality of God and His Grace being given to us. ..

Peace in Him!

 

[secretdawn]

so do you think perhaps the reason the churches seem so spirit filled is because of the emotional strings the might be pulling with their servicesz/

 

[thereselittleflower]

so do you think perhaps the reason the churches seem so spirit filled is because of the emotional strings the might be pulling with their servicesz/

I think there is a mixture . .and that there are those experiences that pass for "spirit filled" that are really emotionalism . .and then there are those experiences that are really of the spirit despite the emotionalism . .

does that make sense?

There is, unfortunately, the whole issue of altered states of conciousness as well . ..


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

<double post>

 

[Metanoia02]

so do you think perhaps the reason the churches seem so spirit filled is because of the emotional strings the might be pulling with their servicesz/

I can't answer that, only you can. Just ask yourself, if there were no music, no shouting and no hoopin' and hollerin' going on, could you still feel the presence of Christ. Take away the emotional strings, as you put it, and what is left? Would people even show up?

Have you ever been to a secular music concert, where everyone is clapping or singing and you started right in with everyone else? Was that worship or just a group thing where everyone does the same thing? I don't know you or your church. Only you know the answers.

 

[SamInService]

Ah, now, secretdawn....I have no intention of going that far. What you suggest smacks of insincerity on the part of these Protestant congregations, which I do not believe for a moment. Christ is the name of the game, and I'm not going to suggest that the members of Protestant congregations who confess Christ and the Trinity are insincere in their worship. The Holy Spirit will move where he wills. That being said, I believe that the Catholic Church retains the most complete expression of Christian worship, and moreover, I believe that I can defend the doctrines and practices of the Church on the grounds of Scripture and Tradition. However, we are not talking about a zero-sum game here, all win or all lose.

 

[secretdawn]

i think i understand...mind you i am from Assembly of God, so...well I love them, but they put new meaning to emotionalism lol...

part of me would like to go to a catholic church, sort of in the same manner i went to different denomonations, just for informational circumstances....because I am what you would call anti-catholic on some things...things i thought I understood, but know now i didn't, and if i am going to be anti-anything i want to form my opinions from the truth...(same goes for being pro...)
but i always feel so looked down on there, i think it is cause it is so formal, and honestly, please don't take offense, but it has never been very welcoming, since i am a single mom....

 

[thereselittleflower]

i think i understand...mind you i am from Assembly of God, so...well I love them, but they put new meaning to emotionalism lol...

part of me would like to go to a catholic church, sort of in the same manner i went to different denomonations, just for informational circumstances....because I am what you would call anti-catholic on some things...things i thought I understood, but know now i didn't, and if i am going to be anti-anything i want to form my opinions from the truth...(same goes for being pro...)
but i always feel so looked down on there, i think it is cause it is so formal, and honestly, please don't take offense, but it has never been very welcoming, since i am a single mom....

secretdawn . . . no, you are not anti-catholic . . an anti-catholic thinks they know everything about the catholic faith, and are against what they think they know, and have no real desire to learn differently . .

On the other hand, you, though you may have once fit that description (I don't know, but it is possible) you no longer do . . . you are trying to understand and that makes you decidedly NOT anti-catholic . .

I do encourage you to go visit a Catholic Mass . . and feel free to ask any questions you have about it before and after! I think it is great that you want to go to see for yourself . . .

Let us know how we can help make as informational for you as we can!


Peace in Him!