Sin?

[tonybeer]

I don't think many people think God is evil do they? There are Theistic Satantists but I don't think that's what they believe, rather Satan is more powerful.

A supreme being doesn't necessarily need to be totally moral. In fact there is no need to think this, except humans tend to attribute their best qualities to the God they worship. The God of the OT acts in a totally immoral way.

 

[Paradoxum]

I wouldn't be offended if someone thought that God was evil, but I would be curious to understand more about how someone reached certain conclusions about Him.

So, it depends on WHY someone thinks that God Himself is evil, and what evidence they have to support this belief? It depends whether they think God is ONLY evil i.e. do they think he is both evil AND good. It depends what someone thinks of the whole concept of good versus evil, and whether bad things should be punished at all? It depends on the persons perception of justice, and it depends on the persons understand of sufficient and insufficient punishment.
It depends on their definition of evil - and furthermore, the source of their definition of evil?

Well that depends on the persons idea of God. The Calvinistic God seems worse than the Universalist (everyone goes to heaven) theology. Not that I accepted universalism when I was a Christian.

I believe God would have to follow the same morality that we do, so I would at least very least, judge Him by by His own standard. If he murders people for no reason, then he is immoral, for example.

How can a Christian talk about punishment and justice when they have had their sins swept away by grace, mercy, and forgiveness?

 

[ianb321red]

How can a Christian talk about punishment and justice when they have had their sins swept away by grace, mercy, and forgiveness?

It's pretty straightforward. It's basically because there is a misunderstanding of what Christ did on the cross.

His death on the cross only meant that salvation was purchased. Salvation was NOT purchased AND applied (this is where universalism has got it wrong).
Christ's death meant that EVERYONE was savable, but not everyone was automatically saved.
The gift of grace (along with mercy and forgiveness) was made possible by Christ, but it is a gift that MUST be received.

The salvation of all sinners was made possible, but ONLY to those who accept Christ's payment for their sins will actually saved.

God's wrath, as alluded the ENTIRE way through the Bible, but graphically in Revelation is reserved for those who in simple terms REFUSE to RECEIVE the free gift of God's grace. Their sins have NOT been repented from, and the righteousness of God has not been received thus exposing sin for what it truely is.

 

[Robban]

It's pretty straightforward. It's basically because there is a misunderstanding of what Christ did on the cross.

His death on the cross only meant that salvation was purchased. Salvation was NOT purchased AND applied (this is where universalism has got it wrong).
Christ's death meant that EVERYONE was savable, but not everyone was automatically saved.
The gift of grace (along with mercy and forgiveness) was made possible by Christ, but it is a gift that MUST be received.

The salvation of all sinners was made possible, but ONLY to those who accept Christ's payment for their sins will actually saved.

God's wrath, as alluded the ENTIRE way through the Bible, but graphically in Revelation is reserved for those who in simple terms REFUSE to RECEIVE the free gift of God's grace. Their sins have NOT been repented from, and the righteousness of God has not been received thus exposing sin for what it truely is.

So if for example, you do me wrong and harm me in some way,
You ask me for forgiveness, but it is not so much that I should forgive, but can I find it within myself to forgive, let,s say I cannot, so I cannot forgive you.
So what do you do then.
God can only forgive what He can, not what He cannot.
There are sins that are outside His domain.

 

[ianb321red]

There are sins that are outside His domain.

Hello Robban - Give me an example of this?

 

[Robban]

Hello Robban - Give me an example of this?

Both from the Mishnah and the Nt/Gospels.
From the Mishnah;
For sins against God, the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) brings forgiveness.
For sins against one,s neighbour, the Day of Atonement brings no forgiveness until one has become reconciled with one,s neighbour.

From the NT;
You would know better than me where it is written something like;
(Roughly) "When you come to offer, if you have something unreconciled with your neighbour, lay down your offer, go and reconcile with your neighbour, come then back and offer."
Also there are other places, like, reconcile while you are both on the road.etc.

A rough rule of the thumb,
the Big Ten were given given on two tablets, five on each.
The first five are, God-man, the second five are man-man.

Also, the sinners who brought on the flood sinned not against God as much as they did against their neighbours.
They robbed and cheated each other blind.
They lived and breathed deceit.
They were a society gone rotten, ethically bankrupt as a whole.
All they wanted in life was to bring each other down, rejoicing in each others suffering.
For God could not forgive as long as those were wronged did not.
He gave the injured party a power He withheld Himself.

 

[lismore]

Obviously defacing a statue is wrong. Again, it depends what you mean by being offensive. If someone said your understanding of God is evil, is that offensive? And if so, is religion special or would you apply that to different beliefs.

eg: Is it wrong to say pro-choice people are baby murderers? Is it wrong to say homosexuality is an abomination?

It might be to do with appropriate and inappropriate time and place.

I would not go to a gay bar and tell them about abominations or to a place of abortion and call them murderers.

No more would I expect anyone to come to a church or to a Christian Forum and say anything bad about Christianity or God.

 

[King Mob]

It might be to do with appropriate and inappropriate time and place.

I would not go to a gay bar and tell them about abominations or to a place of abortion and call them murderers.

No more would I expect anyone to come to a church or to a Christian Forum and say anything bad about Christianity or God.

Wouldn't do any of the above immaterial if I was in `THAT` particular place or not.

Your mind works in very mysterious ways Lismore, is there a want?

 

[theFijian]

Ok yeah that is a hypothetical. However scientific tests looking at the effects of prayer have been done with the result of prayer being ineffective. This is the one that was most in depth and with the largest sample size HMS Press Release:

Not that means that there is no God, it's either that or there is no point praying to him if you have a heart condition.

The problem is each one of these studies starts with a false premise and so are doomed from the outset. God is not a vending machine and prayer is not a magic £1 coin which we put into the slot.

 

[Robban]

The problem is each one of these studies starts with a false premise and so are doomed from the outset. God is not a vending machine and prayer is not a magic £1 coin which we put into the slot.

That would make Las Vegas the biggest prayer house in the would

 

[tonybeer]

The problem is each one of these studies starts with a false premise and so are doomed from the outset. God is not a vending machine and prayer is not a magic £1 coin which we put into the slot.

In order to claim prayer works you have to test it and provide proper evidence that it works. As I've already explained personal testimony is not sufficient proof.

I have asked several times about how you could rigourously test whether prayer worked to both a scientific standard and also one that a Christian would find satisfactory. No one has answered yet. Without a test you can't say prayer has any effect as you have no evidence that is does. Any real effect must be testable.

I suggested using amputees, as there have never been any examples of arms growing back. Although an arm growing back after praying to God would not be proof that prayer works, it would at least be a step in the right direction.

Do you have any alternative suggestions as to how you could test prayer to a scientific standard?

 

[theFijian]

In order to claim prayer works you have to test it and provide proper evidence that it works. As I've already explained personal testimony is not sufficient proof.

I have asked several times about how you could rigourously test whether prayer worked to both a scientific standard and also one that a Christian would find satisfactory. No one has answered yet. Without a test you can't say prayer has any effect as you have no evidence that is does. Any real effect must be testable.

I suggested using amputees, as there have never been any examples of arms growing back. Although an arm growing back after praying to God would not be proof that prayer works, it would at least be a step in the right direction.

Do you have any alternative suggestions as to how you could test prayer to a scientific standard?

I wouldn't even try to. Like I said, God is not a cosmic vending machine into which you place little prayers like pennies. The whole premise of placing prayer under empirical observation is to fundamentally misunderstand the function of prayer in a believers life. As though if we all gang up on God he'll have to do what we ask him to do?

 

[MikeBigg]

I suggested using amputees, as there have never been any examples of arms growing back. Although an arm growing back after praying to God would not be proof that prayer works, it would at least be a step in the right direction.

Actually, there are recent-ish records of arms growing back. This happened during the Azuza Street revival in the early 1900s.

I'm interested that even a profound miracle like that wouldn't be sufficient, so I guess nothing will.

Here's a thing that has been happening over the last few years. I have heard about it from a variety of sources - different ministers, denominations and countries. The thing is that implanted material to support bones and joints disappears when people are prayed for and the joint is healed.

One account I heard was of a French guy who had a broken arm and had titanium support implanted. He was prayed for and the arm was healed. He went back to the doctor who took and x-ray which showed there was no titanium bar. This is happening all over with greater frequency.

But - I guess the before and after x-rays wouldn't be sufficient proof either.

Mike

 

[tonybeer]

Prayer may help people, although if you are claiming a God is intervening and helping heal things then you must be able to prove that.

Prayer could help people in the way say meditation does, relaxing and allowing self reflection which in turn allows you to make a decision. I'm not saying it does work that way, but it is one of many hypotheses. I won't make that claim without evidence.

Unless you can prove a God is involved then you can't make the claim that one is.

This whole debate was started earlier by someone saying Fabrice Muamba was helped by the power of prayer. This was an assertion without evidence and also implied a physical effect as a result of prayer.

All I am asking is that people don't assert things without evidence, it's so frustrating!

You are going down the lines of "prayer helps people, but there is no way I can prove it does". Why make the claim? If it is untestable then you can't.

Where have you got the claim from in the first place if you can't test it and know it is correct?

I am not making any claims. I am simply asking for evidence for any assertions made. If you make a claim you have to provide that evidence.

 

[tonybeer]

Actually, there are recent-ish records of arms growing back. This happened during the Azuza Street revival in the early 1900s.

I'm interested that even a profound miracle like that wouldn't be sufficient, so I guess nothing will.

Here's a thing that has been happening over the last few years. I have heard about it from a variety of sources - different ministers, denominations and countries. The thing is that implanted material to support bones and joints disappears when people are prayed for and the joint is healed.

One account I heard was of a French guy who had a broken arm and had titanium support implanted. He was prayed for and the arm was healed. He went back to the doctor who took and x-ray which showed there was no titanium bar. This is happening all over with greater frequency.

But - I guess the before and after x-rays wouldn't be sufficient proof either.

Mike

You'd have to prove that the arm growing back was a result of God and not a biological effect. Thay was why I said just that case wouldn't prove it.

Have you any links to these, they sound interesting?

 

[ianb321red]

I have asked several times about how you could rigourously test whether prayer worked to both a scientific standard and also one that a Christian would find satisfactory. No one has answered yet. Without a test you can't say prayer has any effect as you have no evidence that is does. Any real effect must be testable.

Hello Tony,

Not wishing to be pedantic but I did in fact answer your question in post #13. I answered your question by presenting to you some further questions/ problems and considerations in the measurement and assessment of prayer.

Your initial response to me was that a lot of things I'd mentioned in post #13 were dealt with in the article you posted. They were not.

In post #17 I suggested that the questions in post #13 could be tackled as a starting point, since the article you posted did not actually deal with them.

My comments in post #40 and post #48 referred back to these same problems again.

So until these obvious short comings can be dealt with, then you can't really approach a suitable experimental set-up. Because there is a very simple and obvious problem: how can you determine which god or god(s) is invoked through prayer and which (if any) is answering (if indeed the prayer is answered).

This is only a problem for non-Christians, since a Christian only believes in the one Judeo-Christian God, and therefore the assumption is that they believe in the power of prayer and of course who is answering it. So, therefore the onus is on the non-Christian to devise an OBJECTIVE way of measuring prayer without "belief" bias - which of course is impossible for a Christian to do...

So, over to you !!

 

[MikeBigg]

You'd have to prove that the arm growing back was a result of God and not a biological effect. Thay was why I said just that case wouldn't prove it.

But, God would cause a biological thing to happen

Have you any links to these, they sound interesting?

Regarding what happened at Azuza Street - Pentecostalism came from this revival - I don't know of anything online. I did read a book called "They told me their stories" which had the accounts of elderly people who were teenagers at the time of the revival and were used by God to heal people. Some amazing things happened during those years if you believe the accounts - and I do.

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/They-Told-Me-Their-Stories/dp/0977968804

As for metal disappearing - I have no specific links, but I'll see what I can find on you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqRk2wBveRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJqAItdTt8


I know this doesn't prove God exists. I actually find the second testimony to be quite compelling, but I believe God is a God of miracles. Also, I have met Randy Clark (the guy doing the interview in the first video) a few times and been in many of his healing meetings. I find him to be a kind, humble man and based on what I have seen, don't doubt his integrity.

Regards,

Mike

 

[tonybeer]

Ian - the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence prayer works. You claim prayer works and this is God answering prayer. It is not up to me to try and disprove or prove any claim you make, I can only ask you for what evidence you have. I have actually tried to help you in trying to design a way you could test it, but in reality it is your job, not mine.

If this weren't the case I could for example claim there are magic dragons that other humans cannot sense in any way, but I can.

Mike - you have to prove God had an effect.

I can't get a coin, "pray to God" that I get heads, then claim God did it if it turns out to be heads. This is why personal testimony cannot be relied upon. I might say it was God, but I have no evidence it actually was.

Also your evidence is an old book of stories and what appear to be faith healer type videos. If anything like this was real, medical scientists would be spending millions researching this kind of thing. Faith healing has never been shown to work. Randy in the video might believe he is actually healing people, but whenever this type of thing has been properly tested, it is always shown to not.

I thought you meant you had evidence from peer reviewed papers.

 

[MikeBigg]

Also your evidence is an old book of stories and what appear to be faith healer type videos. If anything like this was real, medical scientists would be spending millions researching this kind of thing. Faith healing has never been shown to work. Randy in the video might believe he is actually healing people, but whenever this type of thing has been properly tested, it is always shown to not.

I thought you meant you had evidence from peer reviewed papers.

I never said it was evidence - I only ever said it was testimony.

There are before and after x-rays of some of this stuff - I guess the reason they aren't followed up and papers written is because the miracle didn't happen in a lab. under close observation.

When it boils down to it, we are not here to prove the existence of God to scientists by performing miracles. We can tell people of how God has changed our lives for the better and even show you videos of Him healing. People can accept it or not, its their choice.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[tonybeer]

Ok, fair enough if you didn't say evidence. I have no problem with what people believe, it's just when other people are harmed because of these beliefs such as:

Oregon couple pleads guilty, receives probation in ‘faith healing’ death of teen son - NY Daily News