Ian the link hasn't come up, however the study you link to is probably one of the ones done before the STEP study. The STEP study was done as previous studies were shown to have deep flaws.
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Sin?
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MikeBigg
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Yes to the first question - I'd have a go even if I thought I might be unsuccessful.
As for the second question, it tangles my theology the way you said it, but if I were able to I would have done.
I don't mean to side step, but .... I guess I just did.
The issue is that God is limited in what He can do by His nature. For example, God cannot lie because to do so would contradict His nature as the truth.
So, God cannot intervene in a in a rape and pull the guy away, even though He could do so, because to do so would require Him to control ... and therefore contradict is nature of love. WHAT!!! Surely His love would cause Him to save the woman from such an act.
I hope you don't mind an honest/confused answer from one of the Christians on the fiorum.
Regards,
Mike
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D
dennis1777
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I will respond with where my experiences, studies, insights and ministry have led me:
Grace, faith and the teachings of our Master Jesus are all for us to learn to Love the Lord and also love ourselves and others with the same love He has for us.
Sin is akin to going against that calling.
Additionaly we are all called to follow in the footsteps of our Master which most basicaly put is to consider what He would do 'as we understand Him'*** in every choice and situation we encounter and act, do, speak as He would. That is following in his footsteps.
***- we need to learn to know Him through study, dscernment, prayer, fellowship with those who may be further along the road than us, service.
Sin here is Knowing Him, Knowing what He would do, say etc; and yet going against that because of any of several reasons: lust, greed, ego, envy etc.
Now the mystery of why there is sin may be traced back to theology around Adam and Eve of course. I will leave that up to those further along the road of theological studies than I am at this time.
For those that deny the existence of sin I need clarification from you. Are you referring to Christians, secularists, those of other spiritualities? Also please elaborate on what you mean by not believing in the existence of sin. That is a highly charged word with voluminous theology behind it, as opposed to the word bad or such.
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Mike - I'm glad it confuses you because it confuses me!
Here's another one if you don't mind.
God tells you to commit genocide. Do you do it?
What is worse, disobeying God or killing?
What I'm getting at is that you will judge his request based on your own view of morality. A lot of Christians seem to make apologies for this in the bible and say it is not meant in the way it is written. That is because it seems immoral, and they think God would not commit an immoral act. However the judge of morality is the person now, and not the morals passed down from God.
Here's another one if you don't mind.
God tells you to commit genocide. Do you do it?
What is worse, disobeying God or killing?
What I'm getting at is that you will judge his request based on your own view of morality. A lot of Christians seem to make apologies for this in the bible and say it is not meant in the way it is written. That is because it seems immoral, and they think God would not commit an immoral act. However the judge of morality is the person now, and not the morals passed down from God.
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Ian - why is God incapable of hearing certain prayers? Surely he hears any prayer if he is all knowing and all powerful.
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We are not animals and therefore cannot have animal instinct! We are made in God's image (Gen 1: 27) which means that we cannot and should not be classed with animals.
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And leading on from that question is does free will even exist, or is it an illusion provided by our brains? This is something science hasn't managed to answer yet, although i'm sure it will in the future.
Free will debates: Simple experiments are not so simple
Free will debates: Simple experiments are not so simple
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Then why do we behave like animals?
Man is the the only specie that was created to stand and walk upright before God.
That is our purpose.
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Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made........
We should know by now that listening to and sympaphizing with the wicked ends up with being wicked to the kind.
What were you pointing at in Psalms 51?
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ianb321red
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Yes, but so does the STEP study because of standardised prayer...
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ianb321red
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Again free will comes in to play here...
There is nothing to prevent me from saying a prayer to God and ask Him to make me a billionaire. Now.
Or make me a Hollywood film star. Now.
But these would be flippant and selfish prayer requests.
I believe that God does not listen to certain prayers like this.
And if these examples seem a little off the wall, then try looking in to what is known as the prosperity gospel...
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Paradoxum
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But then if they insult 'God' it's offensive to people who believe in God.
It depends what you mean by insult. Some Christians might say it is an insult to God, not to follow the Bible.
Some Christians might feel offended, but I would think shows a lack of faith. The more faith you have, the more likely you are to feel sorry for them, rather than offended.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember being offended by people like Dawkins when I was a Christian. I just thought they were silly and wrong.
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They had to put that standard line in in order that there be something to base the test on. Otherwise they could have been praying for anything. I'm not sure what you are basing your logic on that "standardised prayer" doesn't work, or what it even is?
If there was a God he must have heard these prayers as he is omnipotent. He would also realise a positive result in the test would convince more people to believe in him - something he must want given he punishes those that don't and it is claimed he doesn't want to punish people.
Can we both agree that a test that would fit your criteria would be amputees praying for their limbs to grow back (they can pray anyway they like as long as they are praying for their limbs to grow back, or is this your concept of standardised prayer again)?
Reading your latest post - is praying for someone else to have a successful outcome to a heart operation selfish so God wouldn't listen? If you had a heart operation I'm sure some of your Christian friends would pray for you. Are you saying that would be pointless?
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ianb321red
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I mean they used a generic prayer. Prayer should be something personal; a conversation with God.
Good point, but I can immediately think of the answer. Read the quote from Romans in my forum signature below. God has basically already revealed himself through general revelation and through His word the bible. All men are without excuse in the sense of knowing that there is a God.
I really don't think he would hold a piece of reasonably dubious research in particularly high regard to be honest...
I'm afraid the design of this is flawed so it wouldn't prove anything. There are many reasons why (and I've mentioned some of them in one of my previous posts) but another reason is that you cannot quantify being a committed Christian which of course would be crucial for any research in to prayer answering.
The best evidence for prayer is to actually befriend Christians, establish a friendship with them and see how prayer works in their lives. This is probably the accurate way - to hear it directly from people who you implicitly trust.
No, that isn't selfish. Praying for health is a very good reason.
The illustrations I gave were prayers that were superficial/ artificial in their intent, and essentially flippant...
I believe prayers like this are insulting to God..
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Ian - the prayer was personal, but they all had to include a specific line as part of that prayer. This then allows you to test what they are praying for. If you didn't have this line in then you can't test the outcome so the study becomes invalid.
The guy running the study thought before the study thought that prayer would have a positive effect, which is quite unusual but adds more weight to the test. To call it dubious research is a bit insulting really, especially from a non scientist. They spent 2.4$million on it so it wasn't a small study and took years to complete.
The way you suggest is actually the worst way to show something has a real effect. Personal testimony is next to useless for showing anything. 5% of Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens. I can go and talk to one and he will be totally convinced he went into a spaceship. It doesn't mean he has. It all comes back to evidence, which is what a study like the STEP one provides.
If personal testimony was a good method of determining reality the following would be real:
The Christian God
The Muslim God
The Hindu God/Gods
Aztec Gods
Greek Gods
Roman Gods
Alien visits
Ghosts
Homeopathy
Healing crystals
Mediums who talk to the dead
Astrology
Fairies
Leprechauns
Santa Claus
etc etc....
Prayer may be helpful to someone, however it is far more likely this is due to another effect (possibly like meditation) than actually talking to God and him carrying out physical acts (like healing a heart).
Talking about dubious prayers, I do always laugh when I see football players saying that God helped them score a goal. If there was a God I doubt he'd pick a side in a football match.
The guy running the study thought before the study thought that prayer would have a positive effect, which is quite unusual but adds more weight to the test. To call it dubious research is a bit insulting really, especially from a non scientist. They spent 2.4$million on it so it wasn't a small study and took years to complete.
The way you suggest is actually the worst way to show something has a real effect. Personal testimony is next to useless for showing anything. 5% of Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens. I can go and talk to one and he will be totally convinced he went into a spaceship. It doesn't mean he has. It all comes back to evidence, which is what a study like the STEP one provides.
If personal testimony was a good method of determining reality the following would be real:
The Christian God
The Muslim God
The Hindu God/Gods
Aztec Gods
Greek Gods
Roman Gods
Alien visits
Ghosts
Homeopathy
Healing crystals
Mediums who talk to the dead
Astrology
Fairies
Leprechauns
Santa Claus
etc etc....
Prayer may be helpful to someone, however it is far more likely this is due to another effect (possibly like meditation) than actually talking to God and him carrying out physical acts (like healing a heart).
Talking about dubious prayers, I do always laugh when I see football players saying that God helped them score a goal. If there was a God I doubt he'd pick a side in a football match.
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ianb321red
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I think what you write here simply further demonstrates the point I made earlier - which of the god or god(s) is actually answering the prayer? How can you actually prove that a Muslims prayer is not in fact answered (if it is answered) by the Christian God?
The bigger question which I think is being overlooked, is which of the many God's are actually real, if any? I think that is really what is at the heart of this issue.
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