Sin

[Reformationist]

Nope, look at Jesus' words -

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

(in regards to the above passage)

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
1Jo 5:16. There is a sin unto death; that is, there is an extreme of inveterate and outrageous hostility to God, which transcends all bounds, and leaves no hope of reformation and pardon. This most solemn declaration of the apostle corresponds with what the Savior expressly taught, and what his terrible denunciations against hardened and determined offenders often implied. (Compare Mt 12:31-32; Mr 3:28-30; Mt 23:29-36, and Cmt. on Mt 12:31) (Abbott Commentary)


Ray

So the Father says that the wages of sin is death, not distinguishing between one sin and another, and you contend that some sins are greater than others? I agree that, in the face of the way God deals with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, it is different. What I'm curious about is, if one lie merits everlasting condemnation under the scrutinizing judgment of a holy and righteous God and murdering a thousand people merits everlasting condemnation under the scrutinizing judgment of a holy and righteous God, how is one worse? Can you be more dead than, well,...dead?

 

[Reformationist]

God gave us free will. It is something he will never take from us.

Well, He definitely gave us a will. Being that the Bible constantly talks about the bondage of our will I'm not sure where you got the idea that our will is "free" but I'm sure it gives you comfort to think so.

It is by our free will that we sin, and by our free will that we are saved.

So because we have free will we sin? Will we have free will in Heaven? If so, will we sin there?

We are not saved by our free will. That is blasphemy. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. I've never heard such an anthropocentric statement.

God bless

 

[SuperNova]

Well, He definitely gave us a will. Being that the Bible constantly talks about the bondage of our will I'm not sure where you got the idea that our will is "free" but I'm sure it gives you comfort to think so.


So because we have free will we sin? Will we have free will in Heaven? If so, will we sin there?

We are not saved by our free will. That is blasphemy. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. I've never heard such an anthropocentric statement.

God bless

From now on if you have a disagreement I would thank you not to make it public. I'm sure it's simply a misunderstanding. Let me clairify myself. By free will I mean he gave us the ability and freedom to think and choose for ourselves. He gave us all a mind. We can think. We aren't mindless remote control robots that he controls from heaven. It is because of this ability to think and choose that mankind chose to rebel against God and sin by eating the fruit on the tree in the garden of eden. It is by our own ability to think and choose that we chose to let sin entered the world and it is by our ability to think and choose that we decide to have faith in the grace of God and choose salvation in Jesus Christ. This is the definition of free will. To think for yourself. I ment we have the freedom to exercize our will, not that our will results in freedom. We have that ability. We are made in the image of God. Our will is bondage because so many times we choose the wrong way and are trapped by our own sin. But we have "free will" in that he does not restrict our ability to exercise our will. We have the ability to choose a life of sin or a life for God. I did not mean we were saved because we will it. We can want to be saved all day long but unless we choose to have faith in the Grace of God through Jesus Christ it's not going to happen.

To rephrase my previous responce, God gives us the ability to choose our own actions. He will not take that ability away. God does not want to make us love him, he wants people who truely love him. And that has to be a choice.

 

[Reformationist]

From now on if you have a disagreement I would thank you not to make it public.

If you don't want the public disagreeing with your position then don't post on a PUBLIC message board. Quite a simple concept actually.

I'm sure it's simply a misunderstanding.

Quite possibly.

Let me clairify myself.

Okay.

By free will I mean he gave us the ability and freedom to think and choose for ourselves.

I agree, insofar as what we are choosing is in our capacity to choose. For instance, we cannot choose to flap our arms and fly.

He gave us all a mind.

That's true.

We can think.

We are definitely rational creatures. I agree.

We aren't mindless remote control robots that he controls from heaven.

I agree with this too. However, I'm not under any dillusion of autonomy either. Nothing happens outside of the sovereign providential will of God.

It is because of this ability to think and choose that mankind chose to rebel against God and sin by eating the fruit on the tree in the garden of eden.

This is an illogical statement. You say the reason that mankind chose to rebel against God was because he could think and choose. The ability to think and choose does not necessitate rebellion. It merely facilitates it. We will be able to think and choose in Heaven yet we will not sin. Jesus could think and choose yet He did not sin. The actual reason mankind chose to rebel against God was because man desired something that God had placed off limits. Why man desired such a thing is beyond me and all other credible theologians to my knowledge. If you have a theory I'd love to hear it.

It is by our own ability to think and choose that we chose to let sin entered the world and it is by our ability to think and choose that we decide to have faith in the grace of God and choose salvation in Jesus Christ.

Well, that is one belief. An anthropocentric belief but a widely held one nonetheless. In our fallen, unregenerate state man does not have the ability to choose to submit to God because unregenerate man never desires to submit to the Law of God. The limitation is self imposed.

This is the definition of free will. To think for yourself.

That may be your definition of free will but it is not very comprehensive. I would say that free will is the ability to choose and act according to one's greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

I ment we have the freedom to exercize our will, not that our will results in freedom.

I do not deny that we exercise our will and I do not deny that we do so free of external force. What I deny is that we exercise our will from a position unhindered by the bondage of a sinful nature. To say that a will that is bound in sin is free is to purport a contradiction.

We have that ability.

As I said, we do have the ability to exercise our will. To deny the compelling and controlling influence of sin apart from the grace of God is to deny our need for redemption.

We are made in the image of God.

Actually, Adam was made in the image of God. You and I are made in the image of Adam, until such time as the Lord graciously remakes us in the image of His Son.

Our will is bondage because so many times we choose the wrong way and are trapped by our own sin.

So we are sinners because we sin? Sorry but that is a weak argument. I agree that the more often we sin the more strength our sin appears to have. I think a distinction needs to be made between the power of sin over unregenerate man vs. the power residual sin has over regenerate man.

But we have "free will" in that he does not restrict our ability to exercise our will.

I never said He did. Our limited ability to exercise our will is the product of the Fall. God does not work evil anew in the hearts of fallen man. It is already there and it controls him until God releases him from it.

We have the ability to choose a life of sin or a life for God.

Who's the "we" you speak of? Natural, unregenerate, carnal man cannot obey God because obedience to God's Law is contrary to his very nature. He views God as the enemy and His law as foolishness. Only when God releases him from that bondage is he free (to a certain degree) to exercise his will in obedience to God.

I did not mean we were saved because we will it.

Okay.

We can want to be saved all day long but unless we choose to have faith in the Grace of God through Jesus Christ it's not going to happen.

Ooooh...we "choose" to have faith in God. Sure. Faith is a gift of God's grace and without it man is powerless to obey God or prepare himself thereunto. In other words, unregenerate man cannot choose to have faith in God because faith isn't his to manipulate until God gives it to him.

To rephrase my previous responce, God gives us the ability to choose our own actions.

And our actions are chosen based on the desires of our heart. An unregenerate person's heart is deceitful and wicked and selfish and cares not for the things of God, nor does he desire them. So, his choices are framed according to that perspective. He choose to not glorify God in obedience because he does not desire to obey God.

He will not take that ability away.

No but He does change the desires of our heart which, in turn, changes our actions.

God does not want to make us love him, he wants people who truely love him. And that has to be a choice.

No one is denying a choice is made. What I've said is that the only choice unregenerate man ever makes is to rebel because loving God is contrary to his nature. It is only after God regenerates us from death in our tresspasses and sins to life in the Lord Jesus that we desire and strive to obey Him.

God bless

 

[SuperNova]

From what I read in your responce I can tell that we more or less agree it's simply the wording in which we misunderstand each other. I do agree that a sinful man can not choose anything but sin because it is in his nature, however when he does sin he knows what he is doing and chose to do it. I do believe that he has to choose to receive salvation. If we make that choice God Gives us the gift of his Grace. Only after salvation can we choose to obey God. And yes God does change our heart and desires. But I don't think God does this to us involuntarily. We recieved his gift and in choosing that gift we choose all that comes with it, including a renewed heart and mind which desires the rightousness of God and to obey him. We can't simply choose to obey God and then do it. We must make the choice for him to give us his grace. Only then can we choose to obey him and say no to sin.
I can't agree that we are not made in the image of God though, because the book of Genesis says, " Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, God made man. " This verse suggests that any man who should murder any other man should be put to death because all men are created in the image of God. We are however, and I think you will agree, Vastly different than Adam and Eve were when they were first created. But because God commanded all life to reproduce after their own kind, after Adam and Eve fell they could only reproduce offspring with a sinful nature, because they had to reproduce after their own kind. By being created in his image I don't really think it means we look like him. I think it means we have feelings, desires, a thinking mind etc. We are like him on the inside. I do believe our thoughts and emotions and desires are seriously distorted by the effects of sin however. And only by the gift of God's grace can we hope to even come close to what we were designed to be.

 

[SuperNova]

never thought about it this way...

I was saved when I was your age. I didn't realize this myself until I was at least in my early 20's

 

[Reformationist]

From what I read in your responce I can tell that we more or less agree it's simply the wording in which we misunderstand each other.

Unfortunately that is often the case. I appreciate you believing the best. That is a very pleasant Christian witness.

I do agree that a sinful man can not choose anything but sin because it is in his nature, however when he does sin he knows what he is doing and chose to do it.

I totally agree with that.

I do believe that he has to choose to receive salvation.

Okay. Can you give me an example of someone from the Bible who chose to receive their salvation? I ask because I'm not aware of any, not to argue.

If we make that choice God Gives us the gift of his Grace. Only after salvation can we choose to obey God.

Okay. I'm confused. You agree that sinful man can not choose anything but sin because it is in his nature yet you contend that to be saved we must obey God by receiving our salvation even though it is only after we are saved that we can obey God. Could you explain that paradox?

And yes God does change our heart and desires. But I don't think God does this to us involuntarily.

I don't think it's an issue of whether it's voluntary or involuntary. Prior to Him doing so we are dead in our tresspasses and sins and wholly aligned against Him. When He changes our heart through the efficacious inward call of the Holy Spirit we respond in much the same way that Lazarus responded from death. He did exactly what a live person does. He breathed, he tried to walk, he moved around. This is what we do when the Lord God calls us from death unto life by the power of His Word. Once we are made alive we seek and desire to follow our new Lord just as when we were diabolically enslaved to a corrupted nature we willingly submitted to the devil.

We recieved his gift and in choosing that gift we choose all that comes with it, including a renewed heart and mind which desires the rightousness of God and to obey him.

Umm...again you are contradicting your earlier admission that carnal man cannot obey God because it is in his nature to rebel yet you believe that our heart and mind is not renewed unto life until we choose His gift. That's contradictory. You see that right?

We can't simply choose to obey God and then do it. We must make the choice for him to give us his grace. Only then can we choose to obey him and say no to sin.

So, in our carnal state, when we are completely unable to do anything but sin, you contend that we make the obedient choice to accept the grace of God? Ummm....huh?

I can't agree that we are not made in the image of God though, because the book of Genesis says, " Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, God made man. " This verse suggests that any man who should murder any other man should be put to death because all men are created in the image of God.

I agree that we still retain certain aspects of our originally created form. However, these all spring forth from a corrupted core. The image of God that we reflect has been greatly corrupted.

We are however, and I think you will agree, Vastly different than Adam and Eve were when they were first created. But because God commanded all life to reproduce after their own kind, after Adam and Eve fell they could only reproduce offspring with a sinful nature, because they had to reproduce after their own kind.

I completely agree with this.

By being created in his image I don't really think it means we look like him. I think it means we have feelings, desires, a thinking mind etc.

I agree with this as well.

We are like him on the inside.

This I disagree with.

I do believe our thoughts and emotions and desires are seriously distorted by the effects of sin however.

Then we're not like Him. Wait...who is the "him" you're talking about here? I thought it was God.

And only by the gift of God's grace can we hope to even come close to what we were designed to be.

By the gift of God's sovereign grace we will become exactly what God ordained that we would be.

God bless

 

[xjonx]

From now on if you have a disagreement I would thank you not to make it public.

Hey guys,


Yeah hmmm a person can say "believe in Jesus and you'll be saved" and then another can write "Hey that's wrong you have to baptised as well" and then another one might add in "And if you don't speak in tongues then you don't truly believe" etc etc etc


It's really easy to correct people. Anyone can criticise. Anyone can smash up a car, but it takes skill to build a car.


What I'm saying is, I've only been on Christian Forums for a while, and I've spent much of my time looking through this section "OUTREACH". I notice that nearly every thread ends up in DOCTRINAL DEBATE. Not always, but much of the time.


I believe this is often a HUGE deterant to the SIMPLE GOSPEL being spread. Our job as Christians is to point all people to the saving LOVE of our God, of what Jesus has done on the cross for us, of how God is FOR US and not against us.


The reason I see it as a deterant is because people come here for answers and they get DEBATES AND MORE QUESTIONS!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! FAR OUT!!!! HOW DARE WE confuse the simple message!!!!


Hmmm I think this is something for us all to pray about because we are here to uplift Jesus in unity and simplicity, that even the simple minded can find salvation.


yep


Jonathan

 

[newlite]

xjonx: you make alot of sence...
vbmenu_register("postmenu_10921173", true);

 

[SuperNova]

I agree. I did not wish to get into a debate. I want people saved

I don't think we can obey God before salvation in the respect that our lives are ruled by sin and his plan for our lives won't get followed before salvation. I would consider choosing salvation the one act of obedience that God made simple enough for anyone to do. But since salvation is a gift I wouldn't consider it an act anyway. You're choosing to allow God to act and give you his grace and save you. The only action on your part is saying yes to Jesus. Jesus knocks at the door of all hearts. We can choose to let him in. But until we do we can not say no to sin.

I don't believe God picks and chooses who he's going to save. I don't think the bible supports that. John 3:16 doesn't even support that. It says Whosoever believes in him will not perish. The Bible also says that God's will is that none would perish but that all would come to repentance. If this is God's will, and God picks and chooses who he saves, then God would just save everyone. God's perfect love and grace must offer salvation to everyone. Furthermore it says whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Sure God seeks us out for salvation, but he seeks everyone out and knocks on everyone's heart.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold,I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Acts 2:21 - And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

I don't mean to argue or to throw bible verses back and forth. But I believe the bible supports that whoever will come will be saved. Anyone can do it. It takes no more action on our part then to speak to God and say yes to him. At that point he does the saving and he does the work in our lives to make it what he would have it be. He changes our hearts, renews our mind and gives us the ability to serve him. When you choose salvation all you're saying to God is that you acknowledge that you can not reach him on your own. That you can not obey him on your own, that you need him and are willing to accept salvation and to have Jesus as your Lord and the changes he will make in your life.

I think my own testimony bears witness to this. I was 14. I wanted to know more about God and how to please him but I was not yet saved. I went to church regularly for nearly a year but I was not yet saved. I chose to believe in God because I saw even before I was saved that he must be real because this earth is so complex. I wanted to do what God wanted me to but I was unable. In my unsaved condition I was confused about salvation. It was a new concept for me at 14. And the bible does say the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it also says seek and you shall find. So even though it was confusing I still saught. And shortly after my 15th birthday God put me in a place where the gospel would be clear to me. That Jesus died for me. That salvation was a gift of God to whoever would ask. So I did ask. And God lifted from my heart all my sins. I walked into that place wanting to sin, seeking it out, and I walked out of that place strongly denying it and wanting nothing to do with it.

You can seek God before you are saved. Many of the unsaved who come to the outreach forum are seeking God. They are still lost in their sin, but they want to know who God is. But if they seek they will find. It is the promise of God. And once they ask him for salvation he will save them.

 

[Bulldog]

God gave us free will. It is something he will never take from us.

Not even in heaven?

 

[Reformationist]

I agree. I did not wish to get into a debate. I want people saved

I want them saved too. However, as we have no ability to save them I'm going to leave that to God. Instead, I will do my best to share the truth with them and help them to view God, and themselves, in the proper light. The better an understanding we have of the Lord and His graciousness towards us while we were yet His enemy, dead in our tresspasses and sins, the more God centered and appropriate our worship of Him will be. When we start attributing our salvation to being the product of our choice we belittle the righteous wrath of God against our iniquity, subject His divine wrath to our flippant whim, and make a mockery of the necessity of the sacrifice of our Savior. As a matter of fact, when we say we are saved because we "choose salvation" we strip Jesus of the title of Savior and reduce Him to nothing more than the Vessel that made salvation possible. I, for one, think this is a heinous, anthropocentric view of the Gospel that makes man's sovereign will the definititive factor in salvation rather than what the Bible clearly teaches is the causal agent and that is the plan and power of God Himself.

I don't think we can obey God before salvation in the respect that our lives are ruled by sin and his plan for our lives won't get followed before salvation.

SuperNova, do you credit God with power over anything? I ask because it seems to me that much of your view of Him is built around things that can either stop His sovereign will from coming to pass altogether or cause His plan come to pass differently than He had intended. There is no area, no time, no aspect of our lives over which God is not sovereign. When you say things like "His plan for our lives won't get followed before salvation" you clearly show that you believe God isn't our God until we are His child. God is God over all, the righteous and the unrighteous. It's not as if God has these big plans for a non-believer but because the non-believer "chooses" to reject salvation God is impotent to bring His plan for that person to pass. I agree that unregenerate man is powerless and disinclined to overcome his inherent depravity. I agree that unregenerate man is incapable of obeying God because his only desire is to feed his sinful flesh. I often hear Christians make the kind of statements you make and I wonder if they think God is just sitting around in Heaven with a plan for people but impotent to bring it to pass simply because the creation says "no."

I would consider choosing salvation the one act of obedience that God made simple enough for anyone to do.

SuperNova, people don't disobey God because obeying Him is difficult. People disobey God because they love their sin. It's not an issue of whether God simplified it enough for anyone to do. God could have said that all we needed to do to be saved is say the word "lemon" three times but He didn't. You see, you start out with an entirely incorrect view of how and why we are saved so by the time you trickle down to the creation you errantly assume that our salvation is the product of a choice we make. Don't you see, that's putting the proverbial cart before the horse. The choice we make is the product of the work of regeneration God does in us, giving us faith through which He extends and accomplishes our eternal reconciliation. Don't you see that if you are correct that we are personally saved because we "choose salvation" then everything else pales in comparison to this "one simple act of obedience" and every admonition to boast only in the Lord and His provision falls by the wayside. The truth is, if you are saved because you "chose to be saved" then you have reason to boast, even if only because you made the right decision. No SuperNova, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. God the Father purposed your salvation in eternity. God the Son accomplished it in reality. God the Holy Spirit applies it to you in His renewing work of regeneration for time everlasting. The covenant of grace by which you are saved is a covenant between the members of the Godhead. You and I and all other people whom the Lord has shown such mercy are merely the passive recipients of the merits of their merciful and gracious plan. Salvation is of God and God alone.

But since salvation is a gift I wouldn't consider it an act anyway.

Whether you say that you consider it an act or not is irrelevent because you clearly show that you do believe it is one when you say that we are saved because we choose to be saved. There is nothing in the Gospel that purports such a view.

You're choosing to allow God to act and give you his grace and save you.

You know, I hear non-believers speak about God with more reverence than this. I am truly astonished to hear a Christian utter such impious things. You know what the sad thing is? I hear this type of statement all the time. To think that you, the created being, "allows God to act." How very gracious of you that you don't disallow the Creator of all things created from acting.

The only action on your part is saying yes to Jesus.

Yes to what question? What does Jesus do? Does He stand at the door of our heart and say, "Please..oh please sovereign created being...I'd love to save you but I am powerless unless you allow me to do so?" We do say "yes" to Jesus but we say "yes" in response to what He does, not in permittance.

Jesus knocks at the door of all hearts. We can choose to let him in.

You know, this anthropocentric view of salvation is so disheartening to me because it's as if people don't even realize how much they focus on their own glory and sovereignty. You say that Christ knocks at the door of all hearts but yet we know that not all people are saved. So, what is the determinitive agent in our individual salvation? Is it Christ's knocking? Of course not. According to you, He knocks at the hearts of even those who go to hell. If that be true I can only conclude that you believe Christ was knocking because He wanted them to answer "yes" and be saved. Clearly you purport that the determinitive agent in our individual salvation is our choosing to let Him in. So, two things become apparent, two very unbiblical and distressing things. First, God desires the salvation of every single person ever created and, therefore, is eternally disappointed at the way His own plan turns out. Despite the fact that Scripture plainly states that God accomplishes whatsoever He purposes, He clearly does not accomplish the salvation of many that He purposed to save in the death of His Son. Second, God is impotent against the sovereign will of His own creation. He desires, purposes, and seeks after their salvation but is impotent to ensure that a single soul is saved because salvation, according to you, is the product of "choosing salvation."

But until we do we can not say no to sin.

So until we say "yes" we can only say "no?" Said differently, until we say "yes" to God we can only say "yes" to sin? In what way does that even come close to making sense to you? If we can only sin then how do we do something so clearly obedient?

I don't believe God picks and chooses who he's going to save. I don't think the bible supports that.

Okay.

John 3:16 doesn't even support that.

What view does it support?

It says Whosoever believes in him will not perish.

And that shows what?

The Bible also says that God's will is that none would perish but that all would come to repentance. If this is God's will, and God picks and chooses who he saves, then God would just save everyone.

If you are interested I will share with you Scriptures clear teaching on the various "wills" of God. If not, I will merely tell you that you do violence to Scripture when you interpret 2 Peter 3:9 that way.

God's perfect love and grace must offer salvation to everyone.

Oooh. I get it. Now God is obligated to offer salvation to everyone. Strange. I have always understood salvation to be the product of God's mercy. Now you come along and enlighten me to the truth that God's very nature forces Him to offer everyone salvation. Very strange. Oh, by the way, can you tell me where the Bible ever mentions any "offer" of salvation? Thanks so much.

Furthermore it says whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Okay. What's your point?

Sure God seeks us out for salvation, but he seeks everyone out and knocks on everyone's heart.

LOL! "Sure God seeks us out for salvation...?" Do you ever listen to what you profess? You've just intimated that we are not found because God seeks us out but clearly because we find God. What a terrible, pitiful, self-centered view of the Gospel. I truly pray that God humbles you and enlightens you to your own inadequacy and inability. Maybe then you will see that salvation is wholly of God.

I don't mean to argue or to throw bible verses back and forth. But I believe the bible supports that whoever will come will be saved.

I don't disagree.

Anyone can do it.

Really? Anyone? Hmmm... What does Scripture have to say about it? Let's look:

John 6:44
No one CAN come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed CAN be.

So, on the one hand we have you, stating that anyone can come to God and be saved and, on the other hand, the Word of God Himself says that carnal man is incapable of subjecting himself to the law of God and cannot come to the Father unless the father compels him. You....the Word of God.....you....the Word of God. You know what? I'm going to go out on a limb here and go with the Word of God. Call me kooky but It seems a bit more credible.

It takes no more action on our part then to speak to God and say yes to him.

So the only thing it takes to be reconciled to the Father and appease His wrath against our iniquity is "say yes to Him?" Sure...you know, you clearly have no concept of the gravity of God's wrath. To think the wrath of God is overcome and quelched simply because you "say yes" is not only irreverent and prideful, it completely degrades the sacrifice of Christ.

At that point he does the saving and he does the work in our lives to make it what he would have it be. He changes our hearts, renews our mind and gives us the ability to serve him. When you choose salvation all you're saying to God is that you acknowledge that you can not reach him on your own. That you can not obey him on your own, that you need him and are willing to accept salvation and to have Jesus as your Lord and the changes he will make in your life.

If you can acknowledge all that, pray tell, what did your heart need to be changed for? What did your mind need to be renewed for? In submitting to His authority you are already serving Him so you clearly already had that ability.

Many of the unsaved who come to the outreach forum are seeking God.

If they are truly seeking God then it's because God has already changed their heart. Many times we see people who are searching for things that we, as Christians, understand as the gifts of God and assume that they are seeking God. More often than not they are seeking the benefits without the Benefactor. You say that unsaved people seek God. The Bible says that no unsaved person seeks God (Romans 3:11). Again, I'm going to go with what the Bible says.

SuperNova, I am sure that your heart is in the right place but, to be honest, you have the most man centered view of the Gospel I have ever heard in my entire life.

God bless

 

[wsgm]

So the Father says that the wages of sin is death, not distinguishing between one sin and another, and you contend that some sins are greater than others? I agree that, in the face of the way God deals with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, it is different. What I'm curious about is, if one lie merits everlasting condemnation under the scrutinizing judgment of a holy and righteous God and murdering a thousand people merits everlasting condemnation under the scrutinizing judgment of a holy and righteous God, how is one worse? Can you be more dead than, well,...dead?

Reformationist,

First off, I want to say I always really appreciate your posts. When I am reading a thread that's full of man-centered heresy, I love to see your avatar and know that someone has stood up for the truth.

That being said, I have to disagree with you here. It's true that each and every sin deserves eternity in hell. But that doesn't mean that some sins are not more heinous in God's sight than others. The heinousness of a sin is not necessarily proportional to the punishment. If some sins are worse than others, but even the smallest deserves the maximum possible punishment, then the greatest sin will receive the same punishment, and we will be unable to distinguish which ones are worse based on the punishment they receive.

That aside, I would argue that all sins do not receive the same punishment. The earthly consequences for some sins are far worse than for others. Uzzah was struck down for touching the ark. The civil laws of the theocracy given in the Pentateuch set forth differing punishments for different crimes. I also believe that the eternal punishment in hell may not be equal for all people, just as there will be differing rewards for the saints in heaven. Jesus says, "It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for [Capernaum]" (Matthew 11:24 ESV). Even if you do not take this literally as hell being worse for some people, it at least means that it would be worse if it could be because some sins are more heinous than others.

The Westminster divines cover this in great detail, including exactly what makes some sins worse than others, and provide numerous proofs from Scripture in the Larger Catechism, Questions 150-152.

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist,

First off, I want to say I always really appreciate your posts. When I am reading a thread that's full of man-centered heresy, I love to see your avatar and know that someone has stood up for the truth.

Thank you wsgm. That is a very kind thing for you to say.

That being said, I have to disagree with you here. It's true that each and every sin deserves eternity in hell. But that doesn't mean that some sins are not more heinous in God's sight than others. The heinousness of a sin is not necessarily proportional to the punishment. If some sins are worse than others, but even the smallest deserves the maximum possible punishment, then the greatest sin will receive the same punishment, and we will be unable to distinguish which ones are worse based on the punishment they receive.

That aside, I would argue that all sins do not receive the same punishment. The earthly consequences for some sins are far worse than for others. Uzzah was struck down for touching the ark. The civil laws of the theocracy given in the Pentateuch set forth differing punishments for different crimes. I also believe that the eternal punishment in hell may not be equal for all people, just as there will be differing rewards for the saints in heaven. Jesus says, "It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for [Capernaum]" (Matthew 11:24 ESV). Even if you do not take this literally as hell being worse for some people, it at least means that it would be worse if it could be because some sins are more heinous than others.

The Westminster divines cover this in great detail, including exactly what makes some sins worse than others, and provide numerous proofs from Scripture in the Larger Catechism, Questions 150-152.

Again, thanks wsgm. I agree with you and, from a biblical standpoint, even the Word references specific sins which are an abomination to the Lord God (Prov 6:16-19). I was speaking practically. I do not know, nor am I aware that the Bible, explains hell to the extent that we can acknowledge more severe eternal punishment for some sins than others. I was simply acknowledging that the Bible does not give specific sentence, other than death, for sin.

Thank you for your insightful post though. That was very edifying to me.

God bless