Sin unto death

d taylor · Jan 23, 2023

fli said:
No. I am saying that Jesus only leaves those who lose hope in Him. Jesus does not leave every time someone sins. God does not impute those sins to them.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. NKJV

Paul stated that he practiced sin even though he walked in the Spirit. God did not impute one sin to him. I probably practice sin 1000 times more than he did. When a believer loses hope in Jesus He leaves. Once His Spirit goes, He will never reenter an apostate person.

Your theology falls very short, reason you have to take verses out of context to make your theology. You have taken verse from one book of The Bible addressing a certain area. And use these verse with another verse from other books of The Bible addressing other areas not related to the other books and the verse from those books.

In one post you made you used 1 John, Romans, Revelation all addressing different subjects.

fli · Jan 23, 2023

d taylor said:
Your theology falls very short, reason you have to take verses out of context to make your theology. You have taken verse from one book of The Bible addressing a certain area. And use these verse with another verse from other books of The Bible addressing other areas not related to the other books and the verse from those books.

In one post you made you used 1 John, Romans, Revelation all addressing different subjects.

You seem to think if a person sins Jesus' Spirit has to depart.

2 Samuel 12:9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. NKJV

David committed at least 2 sins under the OC that were unforgivable. He was a prophet himself, but he did not repent for at least 6 months and then only after God sent another prophet to confront him.

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. NKJV

Yet even though the Spirit could leave people in the OT without them losing salvation, it never departed David. Even in the OT Jesus' Spirit could stay in someone that was sinning.

How many books in the OT does it take to get the doctrine concerning Jesus? Are they all in one section called the story of the messiah?.

d taylor · Jan 23, 2023

fli said:
You seem to think if a person sins Jesus' Spirit has to depart.

2 Samuel 12:9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. NKJV

David committed at least 2 sins under the OC that were unforgivable. He was a prophet himself, but he did not repent for at least 6 months and then only after God sent another prophet to confront him.

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. NKJV

Yet even though the Spirit could leave people in the OT without them losing salvation, it never departed David. Even in the OT Jesus' Spirit could stay in someone that was sinning.

How many books in the OT does it take to get the doctrine concerning Jesus? Are they all in one section called the story of the messiah?.

No that was the impression i got from your post.

I believe the very moment a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life they have Eternal Life the gift of God. Never to lose the Eternal Life the received from God at the moment of faith in Jesus.

Even if they stop believing and fall away from faith in God, they are still a born again son of God, nothing can separate a child of God from God and Eternal Life.

Guojing · Jan 23, 2023

fli said:
1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. NKJV

In verse 16 the Christian sinning a sin that does not lead to death we are to pray for him. Still in verse 16 as a result of our intercessory prayer God will give him life. If God gives him life as a result of our prayer then the sin not unto death must lead to death. Still in verse 16 there is a sin leading to death which we are not to pray for.

How many types of death are there?

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV

Being tossed into the lake of fire is the second death. There are no other deaths after the lake of fire. Since the lake of fire is the second death and none to follow there are 2 types of death.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. NKJV

We know that Jesus' death did not lead to his being cast into the lake of fire. His death was a physical death. This must be the first type of death.

What do we know about each? The first death everyone will go through. Unbelievers as well as believers all will die eventually. That means the righteous and unrighteous will die the first death.

The second death only those not found in the book of life will die. All believer's are found in the lamb's book of life. Can a believer lose their salvation?

Colossians 1:21 1 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

Jesus will keep us if we continue in the faith, not moved from the hope of the gospel.

Hebrews 3:6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. NKJV

Once again we are told if we hold on to our hope we will be in Jesus' house. Where does our hope come from?

1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, NKJV

Jesus is our hope. Why is our hope so important?

Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

It seems our faith and love come from our hope. Jesus gives us this hope so He gives us faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV

If we lose hope in Jesus we lose faith in Jesus and lose salvation. We are warned to hold on to our hope. Can we lose hope in Jesus?

Think of the books of Hebrews to Revelation as doctrine for a future age, which is the age to come.

During that time, there will be, among other things, the 7 years of Jacob's trouble, where there will be temptation for everyone to take the Mark of the Beast, so that they can participate in the market economy.

So during those 7 years, anyone who takes the Mark will not be saved, no matter what they believed about Christ at the beginning of the age.

That is why you see passages in Hebrews to Revelation about believers

Justified by Faith and Works
Committing sins that lead to death
Losing their salvation
Having no love of God in them
Thrown to the lake of fire.

fli · Jan 24, 2023

d taylor said:
No that was the impression i got from your post.

I believe the very moment a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life they have Eternal Life the gift of God. Never to lose the Eternal Life the received from God at the moment of faith in Jesus.

Even if they stop believing and fall away from faith in God, they are still a born again son of God, nothing can separate a child of God from God and Eternal Life.

You say that even if a believer apostates God still gives that person eternal life in heaven.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. NKJV

God cannot grant them repentance which means they can never be considered justified and forgiven. They are cursed and burned. Doesn't sound like eternal life in heaven to me.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, NKJV

Verse 26 there is no more sacrifice for their sins.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV

Because there is no more sacrifice for their sins Jesus cannot keep them sanctified in their spirit, soul and body. That means the new spirit man is a sinner and will be for an eternity. Those who apostate will be just like the angels that rebelled. Heaven will be full of sinning demons running around which would destroy the blessings of heaven for God and the sinless sons of God.

parousia70 · Jan 24, 2023

sandman said:
Not all believers will die....1Th 4:15

Everyone dies: Hebrews 9:27

AND

ALL Believers NEVER Die: John 11:26

d taylor · Jan 24, 2023

fli said:
You say that even if a believer apostates God still gives that person eternal life in heaven.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. NKJV

God cannot grant them repentance which means they can never be considered justified and forgiven. They are cursed and burned. Doesn't sound like eternal life in heaven to me.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, NKJV

Verse 26 there is no more sacrifice for their sins.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV

Because there is no more sacrifice for their sins Jesus cannot keep them sanctified in their spirit, soul and body. That means the new spirit man is a sinner and will be for an eternity. Those who apostate will be just like the angels that rebelled. Heaven will be full of sinning demons running around which would destroy the blessings of heaven for God and the sinless sons of God.

There is no God will give a fallen away believer eternal life. Once a person (unbeliever) trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life and becomes a born again child of God. God has given this person His free gift of Eternal Life. There is no waiting by God to give eternal life to a person, who trust in The Messiah, to see if they will remain in the faith They have it at the very moment of faith.

We can go back a forth about this, i am sure you have your beliefs and i certainly have mine.

So i will leave you with a video

Aaron112 · Jan 24, 2023

As if agreeing to disagree.... sad excuse.
No, whether it is only from man's view, or otherwise,
there have been too many "believers' saved, who lost their faith and their eternal life and they only have judgment to look forward to, having crucified anew the Messiah Savior Jesus, or trampled under foot His blood, or just drew back, drew away in unbelief, maybe because someone they loved died, or whatever reason....

Aaron112 · Jan 24, 2023

disciple Clint said:
are you certain about that? what of Judas?

He may not be a good example for anything here.

Remember Esau, who God Says was "profane" from birth ...

Guojing · Jan 24, 2023

fli said:
You say that even if a believer apostates God still gives that person eternal life in heaven.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. NKJV

God cannot grant them repentance which means they can never be considered justified and forgiven. They are cursed and burned. Doesn't sound like eternal life in heaven to me.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, NKJV

Verse 26 there is no more sacrifice for their sins.

Generally, how people who believes in OSAS throughout all times, answer your use of scriptures regarding loss of salvation for believers, in Hebrews, is to resort to making tautological points.

The classic example is to say "If a believer falls away, he was never a true believer to begin with".

fli · Jan 25, 2023

Aaron112 said:
As if agreeing to disagree.... sad excuse.
No, whether it is only from man's view, or otherwise,
there have been too many "believers' saved, who lost their faith and their eternal life and they only have judgment to look forward to, having crucified anew the Messiah Savior Jesus, or trampled under foot His blood, or just drew back, drew away in unbelief, maybe because someone they loved died, or whatever reason....

Yes, you are right on.

I agree that those who apostate will live forever. One born of God has an eternal spirit. They have lost their inheritance not eternal life,

Acts 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' NKJV

Jesus told Paul those who believed in Jesus through his labors got an inheritance with those who had faith in Him (Jesus). Where is the inheritance of those who have faith in Jesus?

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. NKJV

The inheritance they gave up was located in heaven. The new inheritance will be with the other spirit beings, demons, who rebelled against God.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NKJV

The lake of fire is the second death for all flesh and blood being without eternal spiritual bodies. Flesh and blood thrown into the lake of fire die immediately. Eternal spirit being will live forever in the lake of fire.

These people did not lose salvation because of their sins. As long as their hope was in Jesus God kept them by His power to keep them from losing salvation. \

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

God takes the appropriate action to keep people from losing salvation. For those not walking in the Spirit He disciplined them to physical death, not spiritual death, if necessary.

Aaron112 · Jan 25, 2023

fli said:
Yes, you are right on.

I agree that those who apostate will live forever. One born of God has an eternal spirit. They have lost their inheritance not eternal life,

You agree with who ? Not me. I don't know the result or results yet to be revealed.

fli · Jan 25, 2023

Aaron112 said:
This specifically is contrary to Scripture , locally, that is just right here, perhaps not in all contexts....

I apologize for thinking that you agreed with the apostates living forever in the lake of fire.

I do not apologize for saying that God takes appropriate action to keep people from losing salvation. You made no comment on that so I had no reason to suspect that you or anyone else would suspect that you agreed with that.

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

That scripture states that if we do not judge ourselves, previous verse. God will judge us. If He finds that we are disobedient children He will discipline us. The reason He disciplines us is to keep us from being condemned with the world.

Maybe I presumed to much in thinking I did not have to say the obvious, at least to me, that God only disciplines His children. I will correct that now.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

In the scripture in Corinthians, that I cited, it clearly states that God “chastened” them so they would not be condemned with the world. God chastened them which means they were not illegitimate sons. God only disciplines His children and not anyone else. Did the discipline save those drunks being from being condemned with the world? God taking action to keep people from losing salvation.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. NKJV

Some Corinthians had gone to sleep because they disrespected the Lord's supper. Going to sleep was Peul's way of saying they died physically, not spiritually.

Now if you will enlighten me and the rest of this board what did I take out of context?

Mark Quayle · Jan 25, 2023

fli said:
I apologize for thinking that you agreed with the apostates living forever in the lake of fire.

I should think, "dying forever", would be more accurate.

fli · Jan 25, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I should think, "dying forever", would be more accurate.

I agree. Being tormented forever does mean, to me, that they are aware of the torment. They had to be alive to be aware. If I had said they died that would imply that God had not given them eternal life.

fli · Jan 25, 2023

Aaron112 said:
Most of the world and online are teaching the devil's ways, corruption, deceitful and deceptive daily.
Whether it appears as if an angel of light, or in red horns with tail, it is totally deadly, worse than cyanide.

Thus, it is more than awkward here, on the forum, when the children are mixed, the devil's children and God's children, and the devil's children are not clearly identified nor identifiable as far as any known way for sure.

On a tangent not related to all that

I'm not sure that God only disciplines His children , or that is that He does not do what is needed to "give the others a chance", like a warning, or a stern warning, even strong punishment , to give them a chance to correct their ways, to turn to Him away from the ways of death and destruction.

Jesus told people in the crowd, "Turn to the Creator, because His Kingdom is at hand", and that is good, at the right time and place and people. He spoke to people telling them to choose who they would follow - they could stay/ remain following the way of death and destruction, to a resurrection doomed to destruction,
or they could choose to turn to the Creator, seeking His Life, His Healing, His Help, His Correction, His Forgiveness.

I cannot determine just what I took out of context from your post.

The scriptures cited clearly state that the Corinthians were chastened to keep them from being judged with the wordl and their sin was disrespecting the Lord's super by getting drunk. If they were an unbeliever to keep them from being judged with the world they would have to accept Jesus as their savior. When someone is disciplined, God clearly defines their sin. The reason given for their discipline was disrestecting the Lord's supper. If they did that as an unbeliever, it would still not keep them from being judged with the world. They were God's children.

Der Alte · Jan 25, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I should think, "dying forever", would be more accurate.

fli said:
I agree. Being tormented forever does mean, to me, that they are aware of the torment. They had to be alive to be aware. If I had said they died that would imply that God had not given them eternal life.

The rich man in Luke 16 was "dead" but he could speak and feel pain.

Mark Quayle · Jan 26, 2023

Der Alte said:
The rich man in Luke 16 was "dead" but he could speak and feel pain.

Allegories and Parables are not the same, though to me the difference is mainly theoretical. Anyhow, I don't find parables to be intended for doctrine about the particular circumstances the parable uses. The parable is told for "the moral of the story".

Mark Quayle · Jan 26, 2023

Aaron112 said:
Thanks for this reply - I could not think how to reply at first.
Since the dead know nothing, no pain, no thought, no praise,
traditions that contradict Scripture are all too commonly accepted.

I think also it is worth noting that where we get the notions of 'no pain, no thought, no praise' are also from Scripture, but according to good hermeneutics, if they are from the poetry and wisdom portions of Scripture, they are to be taken as such, and not necessarily literal. For example, in Ecclesiastes, when he says that all is vanity, it doesn't mean that we should conclude that there is no point to anything. Even that very book denies it is so by the end, where it says, 'Let's hear the conclusion to the matter... fear God'

Der Alte · Jan 26, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Allegories and Parables are not the same, though to me the difference is mainly theoretical. Anyhow, I don't find parables to be intended for doctrine about the particular circumstances the parable uses. The parable is told for "the moral of the story".

Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It might be some other figure of speech. In the 18th century E.W. Bullinger identified 212 different "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" and published a book by that title. A parable has a specific format. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. Lazarus is not identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to his Disciples.
The 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual. My final point, if Lazarus and the rich man was not factual, would Jesus use something false to clarify/explain something true?
In your opinion what is the moral of the story?

Sin unto death

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency