Sin: Not a Reason to Refuse Communion

[The Liturgist]

The problem is you made the claim it was a "truly pagan" holiday despite the fact it comes from a Christian holiday. I'll definitely say that the modern Halloween celebration (at least in the US) has diverged considerably from the original All Hallows' Eve and at this point is basically completely secular, but the same thing can be said for Valentine's Day, which has essentially nothing to do with the saint nowadays and is just a holiday emphasizing romance. But this introduction of romance (contrary to what some fundamentalists might claim) has nothing to do with paganism, given that the holiday only started to have that association in the 14th century.

Halloween might be a completely secular celebration at this point, but it's not pagan.


While it's a popular claim that the Mexican Day of the Dead was some kind of syncretism with an Aztec celebration, looking a bit into it, the accuracy of this claim is disputed in academia, with some asserting it's really just a relatively modern rebranding of previous customs derived from Spain in an effort to feel more uniquely Mexican. Unfortunately, it seems most of the relevant literature is in Spanish.

I don’t think our friend @bbbbbbb was not in any way referring to the formal Christian feast of All Saints. The Eastern Orthodox observe this same feast on the Sunday after Pentecost, because we celebrate the Holy Trinity on Pentecost Sunday together with the descent of the Holy Spirit, and we also have a liturgy on Holy Spirit Monday, and of course, it is a very festive time, and one of the few times in the year along with Palm Sunday where our clergy wear green vestments (the default color is gold, or red for apostles, martyrs and the Cross, blue for the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Angels, Purple for Saturdays and Sundays in Lent, Black for weekdays in Lent, and White for feasts of our Lord such as Pascha, Christmas and the Transfiguration).

Needless to say we don’t dress up as ghosts on the Saturday after Pentecost.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem is you made the claim it was a "truly pagan" holiday despite the fact it comes from a Christian holiday. I'll definitely say that the modern Halloween celebration (at least in the US) has diverged considerably from the original All Hallows' Eve and at this point is basically completely secular, but the same thing can be said for Valentine's Day, which has essentially nothing to do with the saint nowadays and is just a holiday emphasizing romance. But this introduction of romance (contrary to what some fundamentalists might claim) has nothing to do with paganism, given that the holiday only started to have that association in the 14th century.

Halloween might be a completely secular celebration at this point, but it's not pagan.


While it's a popular claim that the Mexican Day of the Dead was some kind of syncretism with an Aztec celebration, looking a bit into it, the accuracy of this claim is disputed in academia, with some asserting it's really just a relatively modern rebranding of previous customs derived from Spain in an effort to feel more uniquely Mexican. Unfortunately, it seems most of the relevant literature is in Spanish.

It may be helpful to define the word "pagan". Here is how Merriam-Webster defines it for us.

1. A person who practices a contemporary form of paganism (such as Wicca) : neo-pagan
… thousands of people … flock to the iconic prehistoric stone monument of Stonehenge in Wiltshire, southwestern England to celebrate the solstice in a tradition that has been observed for millennia and still carries spiritual importance for modern-day pagans.—Aristos Georgiou

Greece's pagans have found an unlikely champion in James O'Dell, a Croydon-born chartered surveyor who gave up his job to "serve the gods". Through the internet he has brought Apollo-loving pagans together in Britain …—Helena Smith


2. a. (old fashioned + often offensive) : a person who is not religious or whose religion is not Judaism, Islam, or especially Christianity : heathen


b. history : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome or Greece)
We are not ancient Greek pagans who saw death as the gateway to Hades.—Christopher Howse

… responses that reveal how [ancient] Roman pagans responded to the withdrawal of administrative support for traditional Roman religion.—R. E. Winn

… he added, with the air of a man who believed what he was telling, "but the first that went astray here was a pagan of old Rome, who hid himself in order to spy out and betray the blessed saints … "—Nathaniel Hawthorne

3. literary : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : a nonreligious hedonistic person
He himself is a pagan of the decadence. He … prefers a well-ordered dinner to a dissertation on the immortality of the soul.—Charles Dudley Warner

I believe that a solid case can be made using the first definition relative to Halloween. Halloween has, assuredly, become associated with neo-paganism. Whether or not contemporary pagans in the Western world have any genuine antecedents with historic pagan religions, such as Hinduism, is irrelevant. The fact is that, in popular culture Halloween is associated with (neo)paganism.

You might wish to read the lengthy entry in Wikipedia which discusses both the Christian and the pagan roots of Halloween - here - Halloween - Wikipedia

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don’t think our friend @bbbbbbb was not in any way referring to the formal Christian feast of All Saints. The Eastern Orthodox observe this same feast on the Sunday after Pentecost, because we celebrate the Holy Trinity on Pentecost Sunday together with the descent of the Holy Spirit, and we also have a liturgy on Holy Spirit Monday, and of course, it is a very festive time, and one of the few times in the year along with Palm Sunday where our clergy wear green vestments (the default color is gold, or red for apostles, martyrs and the Cross, blue for the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Angels, Purple for Saturdays and Sundays in Lent, Black for weekdays in Lent, and White for feasts of our Lord such as Pascha, Christmas and the Transfiguration).

Needless to say we don’t dress up as ghosts on the Saturday after Pentecost.

Thank you. That is quite true regarding my views.

 

[Dan Perez]

Thank you. That is quite true regarding my views.

And what is called the LORD'S SUPPER is only found in Matt 26:28 and 29 and CAN NOT used today as Christ says to the disciples , I will NOT // ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , and that means Christ will neverrrrrrrrrr drink UNTIL it new with you in my Father's KINGDOM , PERIOD !!

The only other verses are in 1 Cor 11: 4-34 and if anyone breaks rules , verse 30 many are SICK , and a considerable number are being put to DEATH ,

dan p

 

[bbbbbbb]

And what is called the LORD'S SUPPER is only found in Matt 26:28 and 29 and CAN NOT used today as Christ says to the disciples , I will NOT // ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , and that means Christ will neverrrrrrrrrr drink UNTIL it new with you in my Father's KINGDOM , PERIOD !!

The only other verses are in 1 Cor 11: 4-34 and if anyone breaks rules , verse 30 many are SICK , and a considerable number are being put to DEATH ,

dan p

Hmmmmm. How does your post relate to my post?

 

[Doug Brents]

And what is called the LORD'S SUPPER is only found in Matt 26:28 and 29 and CAN NOT used today as Christ says to the disciples , I will NOT // ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , and that means Christ will neverrrrrrrrrr drink UNTIL it new with you in my Father's KINGDOM , PERIOD !!

The only other verses are in 1 Cor 11: 4-34 and if anyone breaks rules , verse 30 many are SICK , and a considerable number are being put to DEATH ,

dan p

A couple of points that should be made here:
1. The Lord's Supper is also found in Mark 14, Luke 22, and 1 Cor 11.
2. Jesus' Kingdom started at His resurrection. Thus, He could have partaken of the cup again with His disciples after His resurrection, as they were then in His Kingdom.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think Paul's notion of unworthy reception is really about sins against fellowship and good order, not the notion that one should be overly scrupulous about the sacrament, given the overall context surrounding it.

Not Paul's notion but the inerrant word of God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Our struggle with our sinfulness is the exact reason why we should come and be involved in Communion. It is there that we confess our sinfulness in line with 1 John 1:8-10, and acknowledge that the broken body of the Lord makes us whole, and that the shed blood brings forgiveness and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

To withhold Communion from someone perceived to have sinned is to block them from the body and blood of the Lord and to say that their particular sin is unforgiveable, which is inconsistent with the Scripture: "All sin and iniquity shall be forgiven of men", and "There is forgiveness with Thee that Thou mayest be feared." Receiving Communion with a sincere heart toward God is a significant form of repentance.

What brings a curse is where a person makes light of the Lord's Supper, as some of the Corinthians did, by being gluttons and getting drunk with the wine. This is when the Lord's Supper in the early church was more of a fellowship meal than what we have today as a wafer or bit of bread and a small cup of wine. Also, one needs to examine oneself to ensure that they are truly repentant when they come to the Lord's Table and not deceitfully holding on to a favourite sin, otherwise they could be receiving the Communion in an hypocritical manner.

Churches that hold the real presence and follow Scripture regarding the the promises and admonitions regarding the Sacrament have and still do restrict reception to those in fellowship; likewise those who are steadfastly unrepentant in sin are excommunicated to encourage repentance and to protect them from unworthy reception. This is nothing new to Orthodox, Catholic and Confessional Lutherans.

 

[Dan Perez]

Churches that hold the real presence and follow Scripture regarding the the promises and admonitions regarding the Sacrament have and still do restrict reception to those in fellowship; likewise those who are steadfastly unrepentant in sin are excommunicated to encourage repentance and to protect them from unworthy reception. This is nothing new to Orthodox, Catholic and Confessional Lutherans.

And I only seen 2 verses that speak about communion , called the Lords supper !!

One in Matt 26:26-29 !!

and the other In 1 Cor 11:20-25 !!

And what does 1 JOHN 1:8 have to do with that verse ??

dan p

 

[Valletta]

And I only seen 2 verses that speak about communion , called the Lords supper !!

One in Matt 26:26-29 !!

and the other In 1 Cor 11:20-25 !!

And what does 1 JOHN 1:8 have to do with that verse ??

dan p

John 6 is quite well known.

 

[Dan Perez]

A couple of points that should be made here:
1. The Lord's Supper is also found in Mark 14, Luke 22, and 1 Cor 11.
2. Jesus' Kingdom started at His resurrection. Thus, He could have partaken of the cup again with His disciples after His resurrection, as they were then in His Kingdom.

I know about Luke 22:16 and of Mark 14:25 and they both are the SAME wording , drink it anew in my Fathers Kingdom !!

dan p